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illuminatispy
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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Old September 5th, 2015, 12:30 AM
I'd like to be able to export to a format compatible with importing into Fantasy Grounds, like D20 is.
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Gelfarin
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Old August 26th, 2016, 06:54 AM
Looks like we're wish-listing a bit here, but I'd really like to see the Editor to be a bit more user friendly. I've been trying to teach myself it over the last couple of weeks and some of it is intuitive and some of it is beyond most of us. Would love to see options such as "minimum Strength for armor" and "toughness added for armor" in the Editor instead of code speak via strings. It was more nicely done for weapons and easier to use there. The easier Editor is to use, the more likely some of us can be of more help with these data files.

If we must stick with coding/scripting, create a list of coding to accomplish specific things. Such as the coding script for Toughness added to armor. The coding script for Strength minimum. A list of cut and paste scripting we can use to accomplish almost anything.

Last edited by Gelfarin; August 26th, 2016 at 06:57 AM.
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Paragon
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Old August 26th, 2016, 11:13 AM
I've actually come to the conclusion that just more complete and accessible documentation would make a huge difference.
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SeeleyOne
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Old August 26th, 2016, 11:44 AM
The lack of need to code things as a user is a great idea. The editor would generate the code for you, based on what you want it to do.

The "Help" file being unhelpful has been a concern for many. It is easier to just come to the forums and ask. Chances are that someone either knows the answer or can figure it out.

Evil wins because good rolls poorly .... or the players are not paying enough attention to the game.
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Paragon
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Old August 27th, 2016, 07:11 AM
Yeah, but the truth is, most people, even most people using the editor, just aren't going to use a forum. They just won't; if they can't find what they're looking for in the Help files or with a web search, they'll either give up or stumble along.
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SeeleyOne
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Old August 27th, 2016, 08:10 AM
That is a personal choice. I am curious how you know it to be "most people". I would think that the answer is really "most people do not want to have to code just to add something into their data set. Period.". That is something that could be said without having to make a survey (which I usually will not fill out).

Many of the feature requests that we have require more work than people want to put into Hero Lab. That is my main frustration with Hero Lab, as it feels like other than the handful of people that come to these forums that it is pretty much a "dead product". There are things that could, and should, be revised. Making an editor that does not require people to code and play directly with an XML file is one such addition. Ideally, you would not need a specific editor at all. You should be able to click on edges and then something like "create edge", where you choose if it is to add to the character directly or to a broader data file. This is all doable, and are features of the program that I am working on. I (and my gaming group) are my primary users, but the ease of use is a key design consideration. One of my groups is composed entirely of software developers and even then I am the only one that is willing to muck around with Hero Lab code. That shows me that even people who write code do not want to have to do it just to manage their characters.

Evil wins because good rolls poorly .... or the players are not paying enough attention to the game.
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Gelfarin
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Old August 27th, 2016, 03:53 PM
I am not a programmer of any kind, yet I love using Hero Lab for character creation. However, I can only use it a little, especially now that my gaming group is doing Savage Rifts. I don't believe Hero Labs is a "dead product" but rather needs to be updated to become more user friends. I do agree that something simple such as the "create edge" option is perfect. The same for all the other features. When you create it, make it so that you can save it permanently to the file so it doesn't have to be created each time. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done other than the initial investment in time by our programmers. However, think about the huge amount of time that would be saved by all the other "users" out there who could readily share their files with everyone else. I'd gladly share as I'm not shy about putting in the work. I am shy about the learning curve to learn how to program for just this product.
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Paragon
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeleyOne View Post
That is a personal choice. I am curious how you know it to be "most people". I would think that the answer is really "most people do not want to have to code just to add something into their data set. Period.". That is something that could be said without having to make a survey (which I usually will not fill out).
You're certainly correct about the second half of your statement, but as to your first, that's a simple extension of the fact that most people in any hobby or with any product don't do forums, so why should this be any different?


Quote:
my primary users, but the ease of use is a key design consideration. One of my groups is composed entirely of software developers and even then I am the only one that is willing to muck around with Hero Lab code. That shows me that even people who write code do not want to have to do it just to manage their characters.
Well, the answer of course is, that they can; it just requires a game system that is extremely self-contained and where extensions to it are still in the context of the already present game system elements. The problem is that game systems like Savage Worlds or Pathfinder aren't those systems. When new elements are added to them, they're essentially ad-hoc components that do one-off things in many cases.

But if you're running a game that entirely just uses the SW core, there's no need for a player to every mess with the editor, and for the GM only to the degree that he wants to do custom monsters or not. Its only when they want to forge into new territory that you run into that necessity.

But as a contrast, you have games like Mutants and Masterminds where you can have people who never have the need to use the editor at all.

So its not an intrinsic problem, but in part a problem because some games, while they might have a consistent structure, don't have notably consistent elements.
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Paragon
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfarin View Post
I am not a programmer of any kind, yet I love using Hero Lab for character creation. However, I can only use it a little, especially now that my gaming group is doing Savage Rifts. I don't believe Hero Labs is a "dead product" but rather needs to be updated to become more user friends. I do agree that something simple such as the "create edge" option is perfect. The same for all the other features. When you create it, make it so that you can save it permanently to the file so it doesn't have to be created each time. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done other than the initial investment in time by our programmers. However, think about the huge amount of time that would be saved by all the other "users" out there who could readily share their files with everyone else. I'd gladly share as I'm not shy about putting in the work. I am shy about the learning curve to learn how to program for just this product.
I'd just like to note that, depending on what additions one wants to add, the latter can be overstated. While they do use the Editor, there are a lot of things that are pretty much trivial to learn to add to HL, that can be added just by copying a similar things and changing a couple of lines and toggles. As an example, when creating a new monster in SW, the most complicated thing you'll have to learn to do for the most part is how to bootstrap abilities; the rest of it is mostly self-evident when you look at an extent monster file, and much of it is just using selectors.

The less something looks like something a given game system has already done, the more you find yourself out on the hinterlands of having to actually figure out the syntax of things like eval scripts and the like, and that does get into some actual coding. But its possible to overrepresent how often and how much a routine user has to do that (as in, for many people the answer can be "not at all").
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SeeleyOne
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Old August 28th, 2016, 03:36 PM
Here are a couple of bugs.

1) The claws and natural weapons are made to replace the Unarmed damage. This is not a part of the official rules, as shown to us in the Pinnacle forums. While it is true that you would want to use claws in place of a punch, having claws does not mean that you cannot use unarmed combat. Instead the claws, bite, tail, and horns should be natural weapons that are bootstrapped to the character.

2) Regarding natural weapons bootstrapped to a character, there do not really need to be all that many options. Each different monster does not need its own entry. Claws that do d4 are claws that do d4. This is not as much as a bug as that the core data should provide generic versions that are then in turn used by the different creatures. This is not as much a bug as an unnecessary bloat in data.

3) The races that have natural weapons, such as the Rakshaasan have their weapons bypass the minimum strength. That is, even when a Rakshasan has a strength of d4 the claws are listed as doing Str+d6.

Naturally, I have fixed all of the above in my own code. I made an eval script that looks at my versions of the generic natural weapons and my version of Natural Warrior (the only difference being that it has no eval script of its own).

Evil wins because good rolls poorly .... or the players are not paying enough attention to the game.
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