Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)

Hi all,

I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the army builder files for Mordheim.

Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more difficult route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code them up from scratch.

I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your files are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces

I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.

but, in the intrem,

Greetings!
-Mike Kitchenman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Meet the McDonald¿s® Lincoln Fry get free digital souvenirs,
Web-only video and bid on the Lincoln Fry prop charity auction.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/UScA5C/fV0JAA/5xWGAA/IMSolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

> Hi all,
>
> I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the
> challenge of re-coding the army builder files for
> Mordheim.

welcome to the group...And welcome to the Morheim
files...I was going to do them using the converter
(since I realy don't know more then the basics of
Mord) but after taking a look at it I'm glad someone
who knows what they're doing has come along...

> Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted
> 2.2 files or re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm
> taking the slightly more difficult route, but
> (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying
> to code them up from scratch.

Actually it's probably the bast call...When you
convert Mordheim it converts a whole bunch of
redundant exclusion groups that have a limit of 0-9999
and no model has more then one (if that)...And every
unit has these...Don't worry Rob, this isn't a
commentary on the converter (which is nice btw) just
the older Mordheim files are very complex...

> I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I
> get stuck.

That's what we're here for...

=====




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

----- Original Message -----
From: Death Lynx
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [AB] Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)

> welcome to the group...And welcome to the Morheim
> files...I was going to do them using the converter
> (since I realy don't know more then the basics of
> Mord) but after taking a look at it I'm glad someone
> who knows what they're doing has come along...

Thanks. I'll pretend I know what I'm doing for the time being. Oh, wait
you mean PLAYING mordheim, ok, yeah, I do know what I'm doing. (I think

> Actually it's probably the bast call...When you
> convert Mordheim it converts a whole bunch of
> redundant exclusion groups that have a limit of 0-9999
> and no model has more then one (if that)...And every
> unit has these...Don't worry Rob, this isn't a
> commentary on the converter (which is nice btw) just
> the older Mordheim files are very complex...

I noticed that, not to mention AB itself was complaining about items with
hundreds of links in them which would cause slowness. *shudder* I was ok
(thank GOD i've got a Gig of RAM...) but it wasn't fun. and I'll second it,
the converter is a wonderful tool. The mordheim files just cover a lot of
ground, which is something I want to address in this version.

"Official Stuff" in one.

"Unofficial Stuff" in a second

and maybe (if I have a LOT of free time eventually) another one for other
settings.

But I think one issue the first one hit was it covered too many rules that
overlapped too much. (And my hats off to Chris M. for actually being able
to code them before. My props.)

> That's what we're here for...

*grins* Askin for it now are ye?

I actually recommend that you USE the converter for the Mordheim files. But
in a way different from how it was originally intended.

One of the most time-consuming things with data file authoring is all the
data entry. If you use the converter, then you don't have to re-enter
everything again. You can use the V2.x data files for that.

So I recommend using the converter to generate the basic data files. Then
go in and delete all the links from everything, which is where the V2.x
Mordheim files are out of control. Then you should be able to clean up the
converted options and items pretty easily. And then you can start building
up the units for a couple warbands by setting up all the appropriate links.
I'm guessing that this approach will save you at least 100 hours of data
entry time (based on how much raw data is in the V2.x data files). It will
also let you focus your energies on the interesting part of writng data
files instead of on data entry.

There is a critical change you first need to make within the V2.x Mordheim
files before converting them. There is a unit in the file "options.mor"
that is used as the basis for EVERY other unit via inheritance. There are
two "lcmp" attributes for this unit, and they have to be replicated for
every unit in the converted files. These rules SHOULD be implemented via a
global race augmentation that defines them as "scmp" attributes that are
then shared by everything. Making this one change before running the
converter cuts the size and complexity of the converted files significantly.

Many of the rules that are generated by the converter can probably also be
ignored and re-created more effectively. So you might consider just
deleting all the rules after conversion as well. If you do, then the change
I describe above can be skipped, since you'll be deleting all the rules
anyways (which includes the hundreds of rules generated by the
inappropriate "lcmp" attribute).

Hope this helps,
Rob


At 06:50 PM 2/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the
>army builder files for Mordheim.
>
>Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or
>re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more difficult
>route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code
>them up from scratch.
>
>I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm
>managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your files
>are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces
>
>I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.
>
>but, in the intrem,
>
>Greetings!
>-Mike Kitchenman


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

> I'm guessing that this approach will save you at
> least 100 hours of data
> entry time (based on how much raw data is in the
> V2.x data files). It will
> also let you focus your energies on the interesting
> part of writng data
> files instead of on data entry.

It took me roughly 2-3 hours to go through and try to
clean up only a handful of units when I was trying it
this way...The problem is that a majority of the units
have options which are split into 6-8 separate options
per price category (it seems that certain weapon
options are priced differently in different
rulesets)...Each of these 6-8 entries can be
consolidated into a single entry with 3-4 live tags...

>
> There is a critical change you first need to make
> within the V2.x Mordheim files before converting
> them.
. . .
> Many of the rules that are generated by the
> converter can probably also be
> ignored and re-created more effectively.

These would probably also save time...however I hadn't
gotten nearly that far...Personally I didn't find the
data entry nearly as tedious as some (especially when
y'all pointed out the "copy" feature) but all of the
option entry takes serious time one way or the other...

=====




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

At 06:37 PM 2/15/2005 -0800, you wrote:

> > I'm guessing that this approach will save you at
> > least 100 hours of data
> > entry time (based on how much raw data is in the
> > V2.x data files). It will
> > also let you focus your energies on the interesting
> > part of writng data
> > files instead of on data entry.
>
>It took me roughly 2-3 hours to go through and try to
>clean up only a handful of units when I was trying it
>this way...The problem is that a majority of the units
>have options which are split into 6-8 separate options
>per price category (it seems that certain weapon
>options are priced differently in different
>rulesets)...Each of these 6-8 entries can be
>consolidated into a single entry with 3-4 live tags...

Based on my reading of this, your efforts were spent in cleaning up all the
links. My advice was to just delete ALL the links. This can be done by
quickly editing the raw XML file as a text file. Then the links can be
added back manually once he gets to working on that aspect. Links are
pretty quick and easy to setup in ABCreator, and they are the biggest
problem in the auto-converted files. So it's easiest just to start over
with them.

-Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

suggestion highly noted.

Maybe tomorrow night.

Thanks, Rob! You are, in fact, DA MAN!

-Kitch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Bowes" <rob@wolflair.com>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)


>
> I actually recommend that you USE the converter for the Mordheim files.
But
> in a way different from how it was originally intended.
>
> One of the most time-consuming things with data file authoring is all the
> data entry. If you use the converter, then you don't have to re-enter
> everything again. You can use the V2.x data files for that.
>
> So I recommend using the converter to generate the basic data files. Then
> go in and delete all the links from everything, which is where the V2.x
> Mordheim files are out of control. Then you should be able to clean up the
> converted options and items pretty easily. And then you can start building
> up the units for a couple warbands by setting up all the appropriate
links.
> I'm guessing that this approach will save you at least 100 hours of data
> entry time (based on how much raw data is in the V2.x data files). It will
> also let you focus your energies on the interesting part of writng data
> files instead of on data entry.
>
> There is a critical change you first need to make within the V2.x Mordheim
> files before converting them. There is a unit in the file "options.mor"
> that is used as the basis for EVERY other unit via inheritance. There are
> two "lcmp" attributes for this unit, and they have to be replicated for
> every unit in the converted files. These rules SHOULD be implemented via a
> global race augmentation that defines them as "scmp" attributes that are
> then shared by everything. Making this one change before running the
> converter cuts the size and complexity of the converted files
significantly.
>
> Many of the rules that are generated by the converter can probably also be
> ignored and re-created more effectively. So you might consider just
> deleting all the rules after conversion as well. If you do, then the
change
> I describe above can be skipped, since you'll be deleting all the rules
> anyways (which includes the hundreds of rules generated by the
> inappropriate "lcmp" attribute).
>
> Hope this helps,
> Rob
>
>
> At 06:50 PM 2/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the
> >army builder files for Mordheim.
> >
> >Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or
> >re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more
difficult
> >route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code
> >them up from scratch.
> >
> >I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm
> >managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your
files
> >are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces
> >
> >I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.
> >
> >but, in the intrem,
> >
> >Greetings!
> >-Mike Kitchenman
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650)
588-8252
> Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm gonna take a swipe at converting the Mordheim files; they just might prove to be as damned as the city of Mordheim itself!
I just got my copy of AB3; frankly, the absence of a Mordheim ruleset is what delayed my conversion from 2 to 3.

Cheers,
-- David

It may also be worth taking a look at the Necromunda files... The setup of the two games is very similar. I'm currently working on an update for the Necromunda files which adds a heap of extra stuff which may be worth looking at for ideas as well (keep an eye out for it if you think it might be useful ).

Russell.

OK, does anyone actually know what the current status is on getting Mordheim datafiles for AB 3.1? I run a Mordheim campaign in my store, and would very much love to have everyone using AB for their warbands. We use it for our Warhammer campaign, and it avoids so many potential problems, it's probably prevented a couple of fist fights.

Debbie

Sorry, I just couldn't get into it. Using the conversion script, it seemed to transfer okay, but I'm not running a campaign so I couldn't test it. I also have my own aesthetic for Mordheim rules, so building a data file from scratch would be way over my head at this point...

So, with the transfer script, it actually functioned reasonably well for a temporary solution?

I am a decent programmer, but a little short on time. If I'd thought about this 6 months ago, I could have worked on it at work during the off season (at my "day" job <g>), but now we're getting into season. If the transfer works at all, it would be better than what we have now (that is, if the file is small enough for my laptop to handle it!).

Debbie

It zips down to 2.5 megs, expands to over 40 megs. It took a lot of processing power to convert the original 2.x data.

Just go to my website; I uploaded the zip and put a link on my main gallery page.

Cheers,
-- David

------------------------------------------------------------------
see my motley collection of miniatures and my scrabbling html skill on my website:

http://cheddarmonger.museedrole.com/miniatures

When the converter was written, it was tested against the Mordheim files. The resulting files were a horrendously messy pig. This is largely due to a small number (less than 10) of silly things done within the V2.x data files that forced the converter to jump through lots of major hoops and generate vast amounts of special handling. After going in to the V2.x files and cleaning up about a half-dozen things, the converted files were shrunk to about one quarter the size from the first conversion.

Unfortunately, that was a year ago and I have no recollection of the specific things I modified in the V2.x files. I can definitely say that they were pretty easy to spot, since I only spent a couple hours with the Mordheim files.

Anyways, if you intend to convert the Mordheim files, definitely look into cleaning up the original V2.x files before conversion. It will pay off hugely in the resulting V3.x data files.

Another option to consider would be to get a team together to work on the Mordheim files. There are so many warbands that it would take one person a huge amount of time to do them all. However, each warband is very small in scope (compared to games like WFB and 40K). If one person spent the time to put together the basic framework for everything and then implemented a few of the core warbands, others could very readily join in to implement separate warbands. This would enable the core Mordheim data files to be up and running relatively quickly and then evolve steadily to cover all the various warbands. If GW allowed us to be involved in writing the data files, we'd have already done this. However, this is definitely a viable option for someone out there to consider.

Hope this helps,
Rob

At 07:00 PM 1/1/2006, you wrote:

Email me if you want my converted files. It zips down to 2.5 megs, expands to over 40 megs. It took a lot of processing power to convert the original 2.x data.

Click to expand...

I would be more than willing to do a number of the warbands from the Town Cryers (quite possibly all of them over time). I own every single one of the TCs, and have probably played or played against most of the warbands.

But as I said, I simply have a limited amount of time to do the basic research into the data files to set up the main files.

Sadly disappointed in V3.

I had an unregistered version of V2.x and it was complete and functional for Mordheim but I wanted to support this company with my purchase so went with the upgrade and now I find that Mordheim files are MIA???

Why is this company relying on the users to write code for them?
What did i just pay $40 for?

quin242 said:

Why is this company relying on the users to write code for them?
What did i just pay $40 for?

Click to expand...

Well, especially in this case GW gets mighty picky about competition when it comes to creating lists...Basically their view seems to be (I might be misteaken) that people won't buy their books or 40K armybuilding program if they can make lists in another format...As such Lone Wolf can only provide the platform but can't be seen as promoting the files by creating them themselves...

deathlynx said:

Well, especially in this case GW gets mighty picky about competition when it comes to creating lists...Basically their view seems to be (I might be misteaken) that people won't buy their books or 40K armybuilding program if they can make lists in another format...As such Lone Wolf can only provide the platform but can't be seen as promoting the files by creating them themselves...

Click to expand...

But they HAVE 40K and Fantasy files or this wouldn't have sold at all...
And they HAVE Mordheim files in V2.x...

I'd appreciate if they just made the new version as useful as the old...
I feel mugged in that I COULD have stayed with the pirate version that worked for the games I play rather than pay for the "UPGRADE" which has LESS functionality...

hang on, you are complaining about paying for the upgrade and yet you are saying that you have been ripping off the company using a pirate version! Quit whinging!

Also, your fault for not doing the research into what datafiles are currently supported before purchasing the new version.