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jlmartin at wi.rr.com
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Old April 12th, 2003, 06:31 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mansfield" <steve@gametools.com>

> But that aside, if they're such money-grubbing parasites, why do you
continue
> playing the game?
>

In a word: equity. The process of purchasing an army and painting it
creates a certain amount of equity in your army. If you quit playing, then
you lose this equity.

SO, when the rules change or game abilities change from edition to edition
only to sell more miniatures...people get angry. Unfortunately, a person's
only choice is to stop playing (and lose their equity) or to continue
playing, often "under protest."

BUT, that one change is not the end of the story! There will be another,
and another, or perhaps the army you've collected goes they way of the dodo
(Squats and Chaos Dwarves come to mind) OR the army you've collected is
split and suddenly the mummies you had can't be used alongside your vampires
any more. Unfortunately, a person's only choice is to stop playing (and
lose their equity) or to continue playing, often "under protest."

As you can see, to continue creates EVEN MORE equity and harder to quit
until one day...the final straw is reached and all that anger finally turns
to hatred. I have started to look for rulesets that are "no equity loss"
(NEL)...otherwise known as generic. The premise is that you can use ANY
company's miniatures to play the game and fit them into ANY army you can
develop.

Historicals are a NEL option because if you hate Napoleon's Battles, maybe
Volley & Bayonet is the thing, or maybe Grande Armee. In these cases the
army is still viable for any rules. For Fanatasy and Sci Fi, I play NEL
games like Fantasy Rules!, Shock Force, Stargrunt, Full Thrust. If the
system has a "design your own..." section you're all set.

Once a person knows there is a NEL option, suddenly the world is your
oyster...in fact, you can continue to play GW games (if you want) knowing
that you can always play the NEL game which would preserve your investment.

Oh and many of the NEL games like Fanatasy Rules! have army builder files
available.
John
E-mail & WM: jlmartin@wi.rr.com
URL: http://home.wi.rr.com/jlmartin
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it."
Robert E. Lee



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  #31 Reply With Quote
txca at sprintmail.com
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Old April 12th, 2003, 08:33 AM
I have been following this thread and will ask anyone who has been in this
hobby a long time to name a company older than Games Workshop. TSR is now
owned by Wizards which turn is owned by Hasbro. Avalon Hill, SPI, Fasa and
GDW are long gone.

The question I have is: are we willing to put up with some "money-grubbing"
tactics in order to ensure WH and 40K will be around in 20 years? Is paying
an extra dollar per miniature worth having a high quality monthly magazine?

Since GW can generate profits, they can conduct R&D and take risks on new
games and concepts. Other game companies are waiting until they receive a
certain number of orders to begin production, this can take a year or even
longer.

Personally, I don't really buy into the conspiracy theory of GW making
models/armies extinct. These guys are gamers and they are continually
tweaking and re-freshing their product lines. On the whole, I think that
each release is better than the previous. I also agree with GW's request
that all models be painted and of Citadel manufacture. WH and 40K are rich
in atmosphere and background and playing with models consistent with that
background is aesthetically appealing.

I will agree that GW is a very aggressive company, just walk into a GW store
and you will witness and some high-pressure sales tactics. I have also
watched them wipe out distribution channels and bully retailers.

I think you have to take the good with the bad. Overall, I have enjoyed
their products since 1986 and still avidly play GW games today.


-----Original Message-----
From: VanMan4311@aol.com [mailto:VanMan4311@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 2:41 PM
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder?

In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tneva82@yahoo.com writes:


> Wanting to stay in business is money-grubbing parasites? Maybe you
> want them to go to bankrupt but I prefer for them to stay up and
> continue the support the game I play.
>

There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business tactics.
GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing the
shareholders. This is why they are money-grubbing parasites.


> Similary. Does WoTC allow cards not produced by them in their MTG
> tournaments?
>

There is quite a difference between CCGs and Miniature wargames. They're
generally sold in the same store but they aren't part of the miniature
wargaming hobby. Not even close.
Lets look at a similiar arguement. Long standing historical wargaming
companies do not produce every type of Sherman out there, but even if they
did, they would not stop you from bring a Sherman made by a different
manufacturer, but same scale.

Or an even more similar arguement: Every VOID tournament I've played in
(which were not run by i-kore, but were supported by them) we've been able
to
have substitutions for miniatures, whether because it is OoP or not released
yet or just really expensive. It generally costs you victory points, or you
started out in the losers bracket, but you were allowed to play.

Games Workshop has strived to create a reputation that it doesn't exactly
care for the hobby it is a part of. And thus those of us who really do care
for this hobby lash back. It's not nice, but were all adults here, able to
keep it professional.
Brad


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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  #32 Reply With Quote
ringsnake at yahoo.com
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Old April 12th, 2003, 11:01 AM
I think that this is the most cogent argument that I've heard in a long time.
I knew John from a long way back, and you could not have accused him of being
a jerk, and you'd be mad to claim that he didn't love GW games.

Me and him both date back to the days of the original Space Marine game and
the Rogue Trader books. I've often referred to GW as "the lowest common
denominator" of gaming. No matter where in the world you go you can usually
rely on two things.

1) If you have a 40K, or even a WFB, army you'll be able to find opponants.

2) If you play a different minis game, even if you provide figs for both
players, finding opponants is like pulling teeth.

I think what may be biting GW in the ass now is that you can regain a certain
amount of your equity in a way that was never available before. Until
recently Ebaying your minis off just wasn't an option.

Speaking of, has anyone attempted to create AB files for WarMachine yet? I'm
trying to figure out how to create templates for the damage box system, but
it may be something that's beyond the program.

On Saturday 12 April 2003 10:07 am, John L. Martin wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Mansfield" <steve@gametools.com>
>
> > But that aside, if they're such money-grubbing parasites, why do you
>
> continue
>
> > playing the game?
>
> In a word: equity. The process of purchasing an army and painting it
> creates a certain amount of equity in your army. If you quit playing, then
> you lose this equity.
>
> SO, when the rules change or game abilities change from edition to edition
> only to sell more miniatures...people get angry. Unfortunately, a person's
> only choice is to stop playing (and lose their equity) or to continue
> playing, often "under protest."
>
> BUT, that one change is not the end of the story! There will be another,
> and another, or perhaps the army you've collected goes they way of the dodo
> (Squats and Chaos Dwarves come to mind) OR the army you've collected is
> split and suddenly the mummies you had can't be used alongside your
> vampires any more. Unfortunately, a person's only choice is to stop
> playing (and lose their equity) or to continue playing, often "under
> protest."
>
> As you can see, to continue creates EVEN MORE equity and harder to quit
> until one day...the final straw is reached and all that anger finally turns
> to hatred. I have started to look for rulesets that are "no equity loss"
> (NEL)...otherwise known as generic. The premise is that you can use ANY
> company's miniatures to play the game and fit them into ANY army you can
> develop.
>
> Historicals are a NEL option because if you hate Napoleon's Battles, maybe
> Volley & Bayonet is the thing, or maybe Grande Armee. In these cases the
> army is still viable for any rules. For Fanatasy and Sci Fi, I play NEL
> games like Fantasy Rules!, Shock Force, Stargrunt, Full Thrust. If the
> system has a "design your own..." section you're all set.
>
> Once a person knows there is a NEL option, suddenly the world is your
> oyster...in fact, you can continue to play GW games (if you want) knowing
> that you can always play the NEL game which would preserve your investment.
>
> Oh and many of the NEL games like Fanatasy Rules! have army builder files
> available.
> John
> E-mail & WM: jlmartin@wi.rr.com
> URL: http://home.wi.rr.com/jlmartin
> "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it."
> Robert E. Lee
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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  #33 Reply With Quote
tneva82 at yahoo.com
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Old April 13th, 2003, 09:26 PM
> There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business
>tactics.
> GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing

Hmmm...They get more and more money and expand constantly. Doesn't
seem that bad to me.


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  #34 Reply With Quote
tneva82 at yahoo.com
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Old April 13th, 2003, 09:27 PM
> The question I have is: are we willing to put up with some "money-
>grubbing"
> tactics in order to ensure WH and 40K will be around in 20 years?
>Is paying
> an extra dollar per miniature worth having a high quality monthly
>magazine?

Yes and yes. I do not agree with everything GW does but I sure do
prefer GW staying in business instead of going bankrupt.


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  #35 Reply With Quote
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