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Sheerkhan
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Old April 8th, 2006, 09:44 AM
when i added the fur of sharrgu to my wargor, who also had heavy armor, the program registered it as a violation.

the validation window says he has 'one or more options not valid'.

i called the GW rule-line and they said that item CAN be used with mundane armor.
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Ghaz
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Old April 9th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Don't trust the roolzboyz as far as you can throw them. They're wrong at least half of the time. Considering the item's description does not state that it can be combined with regular armor why should it be allowed?
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Sheerkhan
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Old April 9th, 2006, 10:22 PM
actually, i have researched this question, asking both my friends and GW staff and going to several forums. the answers are unanimous, it CAN be used with armor.

the item described is a cloak, and does not preclude magical armor.

also, the GW books are known for bad editing and unclear syntax. that's what the consensus is on this item, that GW printed an incomplete description of it in the book, and that the specific line stating "this item may be used with armor" was left out due to poor editing.

i went all out to find a ruling on this, got alot of responses, and they were unanimous. only then did i post it here, when i was almost certain.
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Ghaz
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Old April 10th, 2006, 06:21 AM
So what if the description is that it's a 'cloak'. Fluff doesn't matter. It is listed as magical armour in the army book. The main rulebook states that you can not wear ordinary armour if you're wearing magical armour. It's only your 'opinion' that there's been bad editing on GW's part. You can't prove that GW left out that it can be combined with normal armour. You want the files changed just because you say so because you don't have any proof that the files are wrong.

The rules are clear. The Fur of Sharrgu can not be combined with normal armour.
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Sheerkhan
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Old April 10th, 2006, 04:37 PM
well, the description says it gives a +2 to armor save. items with "+ armor saves" can usually be worn with armor.

also, this is more than my opinion, as you are the only person i've talked to that doesn't agree. and that includes the roolzboys. you may not like their rulings, or trust them, but their word is official, not yours. GW said it can be used with armor.

many veteran beasts players say they have used this combo in tourneys. so it is legal.
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Sheerkhan
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Old April 10th, 2006, 06:33 PM
for those interested, i fixed this with ABCreator. i opened the chaos data files. i went into Item and selected The Fur of Sharrgu.

i clicked the Exlusions button, and in the window that opened i chose the column Usage in the row Armor and changed the 1 to a "-".
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Ghaz
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Old April 10th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheerkhan
well, the description says it gives a +2 to armor save. items with "+ armor saves" can usually be worn with armor.
So? It still doesn't say that it can be combined with mundane armour, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheerkhan
also, this is more than my opinion, as you are the only person i've talked to that doesn't agree. and that includes the roolzboys. you may not like their rulings, or trust them, but their word is official, not yours. GW said it can be used with armor.
First of all, the roolzboyz are NOT official. Not by a long shot. They have no more insight into the rules than anybody else. Secondly, it doesn't matter if everybody you've talked to agrees with you or not. You've still failed to answer the question. Where does it say that it can be combined with mundane armour?

So once again, from page 153 of the WHFB 6th edition rulebook:

Quote:
If a character wears magical armour, he cannot also wear ordinary armour...
According to page 63 of the Beasts of Chaos army book the Fur of Sharrgu is listed as Magical Armour. Now the burden of proof is on you to prove that it can be combined with mundane armour and just because 'everybody says so' is not proof.
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GMTemplar
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Old April 11th, 2006, 01:32 AM
I think it really should be usable with armour simply because otherwise there's no point in taking it in the first place. Heavy armour costs 11 pts less and gives you more protection. If the two cannot be combined the Fur is just waste of space. If you point me even one reasonable situation where one would take the fur over heavy/chaos armour I might change my mind. If not, I would seriously suggest changing the way it works in the Army Builder because a) that's how most seem to play it anyway and b) that's the way it works in AB2.2. If you still don't want to use the Fur with armour then simply don't but I think people should have the option in this case without getting a validation error.

I'm basing my opinion simply on common sense and perception of general consensus amongst players. For clarification, Rulezboyz don't have the power to make rulings and their word is no more official than of anyone here. Simply because they wear GW shirts doesn't give them the power to make rulings and they're notorious for making wrong 'clarifications' even in the most clear cut cases.
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Sheerkhan
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Old April 11th, 2006, 04:52 AM
as far as i know, absent a ruling from the higher ups or special moderator, roolzboys rulings are legal in any tournament. that means they are legal.

also, they are proof. when having a rule disagreement, the roolzboys rulings are always accepted. i have seen people grumble, but they know they have to accept it. i have seen people whip out cell phones in the middle of a tourny to call and ask. only in house rules situations have i seen anyone not abide by their rulings. and i have been playing WHFB since 1989. people may not trust them, but this is what it is.

plus, my interpretation makes more sense. common sense. everyone knows the GW books have poor editing. everyone knows WHFB rules can be complex, byzantine, and need interpretation. everyone has come to a situation that needed common sense to resolve absent clear rulings. common sense.

no one likes rulz lawyers.
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deathlynx
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Old April 11th, 2006, 05:09 AM
I have to agree that the roolzboys are actually a very falible source as far as debates go...they frequently misquote rules as they don't even try to doublecheck their answers...And two different ones will give you two contradictory answers...I've had them completely ignore exceptions and rules blatantly stated and explicetly worded in the books...

The only valid source of info at any given tourny is the host/judge and the rules that have been posted...Generally they simply state Core Rulebook, Armybooks and Chronicals/Annual but disputes that aren't covered by these are up to the judge to sort out...

All that being said I agree that by the strict wording of the various rules the cloak cannot be combined with other armor...
However I also agree that the intent for it is that it is supposed to be able to and GW screwed up the printing (wouldn't be the first won't be the last)...
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