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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 68

July 6th, 2014, 07:10 PM
But the saves aren't truly additive. you take the best bonus from the classes at each level. I go from 2,2,2 at 1st level to 3,3,5, a gain of +3 to my reflex, when monk gives +1(when it goes from +2 to +3) or Ninja gives +2.

No class gets +3 to a save from normal level progression. you either get +0, +1, or +2, and the +2 only happens when you have the first level of a new class.

That line of logic would be like saying that lvl 1 monk has saves of 2,2,2 and since level 2 of monk says 3,3,3 then my 2nd level monk would have saves of 5,5,5.

I'll use the Adjustments to get things back into line. I'll see what else I can find to help you beta this.

Last edited by Dianae; July 6th, 2014 at 07:18 PM.
#11
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July 6th, 2014, 08:04 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dianae But the saves aren't truly additive. you take the best bonus from the classes at each level. I go from 2,2,2 at 1st level to 3,3,5, a gain of +3 to my reflex, when monk gives +1(when it goes from +2 to +3) or Ninja gives +2.
Um they are additive actually. If I am normal level 2 monk I have 3,3,3 and I add one level of fighter I get a total of 5,3,3. I add another level of fighter and we get 6,3,3.

You basically just take the save values at any given class level and add it to any other class you are multiclass with.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dianae That line of logic would be like saying that lvl 1 monk has saves of 2,2,2 and since level 2 of monk says 3,3,3 then my 2nd level monk would have saves of 5,5,5.
Not with the same class but you do with multiple classes yes.

I guess the whole issue here is if a "monk/ninja" is considered a whole new class? Separate from a Fighter/Monk level? If so then really we should have 4,4,4 in all saves but then you should have +0 BAB as you are not level 2 monk your a level 1 monk/ninja both with a BAB of +0 being added to a Fighter/Monk BAB of +1. My thinking is that is not the case and if it is 100% true this whole addon needs to be scrapped back to the concept stage.

The issue is that their is like two sentences of information to go on for gestalt saves:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by d20srd Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.

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#12
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July 6th, 2014, 08:42 PM
That's why I was saying it's not exactly additive... My husband is trying to sum it up in a different way.

An issue that may be here is that the rules for gestalt do not support each combination as a given single class. Each level of gestalt, the intention is to look at what each class would normally get for it's current level and take the higher value for the things that would over lap, such as individual saves, Base attack, and the like.

So in the earlier example, at level 2, a monk ads +1 to all of his saves, and a first level rogue adds a +2 to reflex, and 0 to the others. This adds up to a net result of +1 to Fort and Will and +2 to Reflex, because the Rogue's value is higher than the Monk's and thus replaces it.

Gestalt should never allow for a class to gain a higher bonus in any one value than a non-gestalt character could achieve at any given level.
#13
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July 7th, 2014, 12:16 PM
I have moved this discussion over to the d20 boards HERE. Their was an existing discussion going about gestalt and I started asking this same question. Based on your example what the final save values are.

The truth is after googling last night I found NO consistent answer. It seems pretty wide open area of how it gets "interpreted".

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#14
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July 7th, 2014, 12:19 PM
First, a hearty thank you for doing this!

Second, I believe that Dianae has the right of it.
• Level 01: Take the highest save of the two classes in each category.
• Level 02: Take the highest save of the two new classes in each category (so +1 CON/+1WIS from Monk and +2 REF from Ninja).

Confusion about things like this is one of the reason I allow only one Gestalt class in my games where I use these rules. So in my games, using the current example, a character could take their first level as a Gestalt Monk//Fighter. If they wished to multiclass, any multiclass levels would only be from one class (So they could be a Gestalt 01/Wizard 02, or a Gestalt 03/Wizard 01, for example). Will your system support this as well?
#15
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July 7th, 2014, 12:20 PM
Sorry, I guess I was in the middle of my reply when you posted that you'd moved the discussion.
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July 7th, 2014, 12:28 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mowgli Sorry, I guess I was in the middle of my reply when you posted that you'd moved the discussion.
No issues I am following both threads...

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#17
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July 7th, 2014, 03:15 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mowgli So in my games, using the current example, a character could take their first level as a Gestalt Monk//Fighter. If they wished to multiclass, any multiclass levels would only be from one class (So they could be a Gestalt 01/Wizard 02, or a Gestalt 03/Wizard 01, for example). Will your system support this as well?
Ummm "maybe". I never tested it but I think it should be ok in theory. The only issue I could see if you tried to take a single level of one of the gestalt levels again.

Give it a try and let me know what you find.

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#18
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July 7th, 2014, 04:55 PM
I tried it out and it worked, so far as I could tell in my very brief test. And as you said, adding a level of one of the classes from the Gestalt did not work properly - HD read as d0, for one thing.

The class summary also became more confusing, as the classes were listed in alphabetical order, causing the levels in Cavalier (single class) to appear between Barbarian and Rogue (Gestalt classes).

But that's pretty minor - this is very cool!
#19
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 68

July 7th, 2014, 11:25 PM
Found another issue, with Skill Points.

Level 1 Fighter/Magus
both classes are 2+Int and I have +1 hp for my Favored class Bonus
With a 10 or 11 Int I have 2 Skill Points - as expected
With a 12 or 13 Int I have 3 Skill Points - again expected
With a 14 or 15 Int I have 6 Skill Points - it added 3?
With a 16 or 17 Int I have 9 Skill Points - again +3 Skill Points for 1 point of Int?
With a 18 or 19 Int I have 12 Skill Points - Again, +3 Skill points.

If it had been +3 skill points every time the Int Modifier increased by one, I'd say that it's counting each class as giving skill points or something, but the math is right for +0 and +1 Modifier. You might have a Multiplication set in instead of an addition?
#20

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