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talsharien
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Leeds UK
Posts: 175

Old September 15th, 2017, 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
I am bothered that they seem to intend to use the same data files which means the same scripting language. They have said they intend to improve the UI scripting but my issues with customizing HL were never with the UI and always with the scripting and the way the program handles data. The reason there are so many questions is to a great degree because HL does things in a weird way rather than in a way that makes sense to people used to using other programs with scripting and modding capabilities.

They should be using the opportunity to fix and improve this part of HL so that users and content producers can more easily use the product.

The inability to use the product offline will be a big deal. GenCon still has no WiFi. A lot of people will walk into GenCon next summer with HLO on their devices and suddenly not have access to their characters and havoc will reign.
I am with Shadow on this one, HL takes a little getting used to and at the beginning seems very daunting. Once you get your head around the way things work you can create almost anything custom by copying chunks of things that are already there. If I have to learn another language, thus rebuilding my large array of custom rules and mods I suspect that it would be the end of my relationship with what is a great piece of software.
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Exmortis
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 750

Old September 15th, 2017, 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talsharien View Post
I am with Shadow on this one, HL takes a little getting used to and at the beginning seems very daunting. Once you get your head around the way things work you can create almost anything custom by copying chunks of things that are already there. If I have to learn another language, thus rebuilding my large array of custom rules and mods I suspect that it would be the end of my relationship with what is a great piece of software.
I guess this makes me lucky. I am not a coder, or a scripter, I have not the knack for it. However I have struggled through learning the scripting in HL, even with my wee brain. But having no foundation to build on really, put me in an advantage, thus what ever HL does seems....well...right lol.

Offline/Online is a personal issue, for me, it is a concern. I spend a lot of time at my lake, and many a hour spent inside looking at rain. Much of that time is used on RW/HL campaign work, and offline. No such connection there, so no offline HLO for me is a deal breaker. However, I also realize that gaming/working with internet is now the "norm", So its direction makes perfect sense. But LWD made a sweet choice here, HL/HLO share data sets, thus HL is your offline tool.

I don't understand the rhetoric, HL works, yeah its UI is old and clunky, but it works and works really well as a gaming tool. Better than any others I have used. So, either you stay with tested and true HL, or you move forward to HLO. What's the bid deal?

So even though I am not currently the market for HLO, no offline and LWD's inability to plan, or execute new projects being the two reasons, they left me with HL, and future dataset upgrades ensuring I remain a customer. As well anyone else that requires/wants/needs offline use.

Exmortis aka "Scott"
RW - Looks like a heal spell incoming
HL - Game Master/Designer
RPG Tools - Campaign Cartographer 3+, D20 Pro Ultimate
Real Life - IT Security
Hobby - Anything on water or ATV

Last edited by Exmortis; September 15th, 2017 at 04:06 AM.
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kbs666
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Join Date: Oct 2014
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Old September 15th, 2017, 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
Normally you have pretty smart ideas but this is just crazy talk.

So you want the several millions lines of scripts that are running under HL to be re-written? All the community packs all the files on home PCs and groups and all the 3PP addons and files. Not including all the lines of code that are written right now running all the games HL supports (d20, Pathfinder, 5e, MM, Shadowrun...) Its taken 10+ years for HL to have that code created by thousands of scripters. But you want that changed?

Sorry that is a plan that will sink LW. The scripting language works VERY well at what it does. If you actually spend time learning the language it has very good reasons for working the way it does. Its the VERY reason we all love HL is because of the very powerful language that Rob developed. Everyone here that likes HL needs to understand its because of the scripting language that you enjoy it. Its what drives 95% of what you see and get out of HL. You want to print a character sheet, or prepare a spell, or make something in the editor? Guess what you just touched something that was created with the HL scripting language.

They are correctly going to reuse all those millions lines of code already created as I guarantee that Starfinder started as a fork of Pathfinder. Then they made specific modifications for the UI and to improve some "legacy" ideas and features. But sense it started as a Fork of Pathfinder (as really Starfinder is only a little different from Pathfinder) and uses the HL scripting language means many will be able to jump right in and start coding Starfinder scripts. That is a positive and smart thing for LW to do.

Last point is the guys that are doing work for 3PP are paid on a very tight time schedule. Meaning you change the scripting language , all the time they have to re-learn, is time they will NOT make money. That is a bad thing as some are pretty dependent on the money they make from paid HL work.
That it has been done badly for a long time is even more reason to change it not more reason to continue doing things the bad way.

I'm a professional project manager and if I was confronted with taking over HL, without even seeing the codebase, the first thing I'd do is start someone looking at fixing the mess that is the scripting language and data input. The fact is it is excessively hard to make even simply changes to HL for no good reason.

I realize you've spent a great deal of time writing script under this system but consider all the people who have tried and given up. Just look at the forums here and the volume of traffic that is nothing but variants on "WTF why is this simple thing so hard?" For instance in Pathfinder it should be trivial for a GM to create a source that excludes the languages and deities of Golarion as well as to pick allowed races, class and archetypes for use in a custom campaign world for distribution to his players. I spent dozens of hours trying to make that happen and got essentially no where. As long as the present scripting system, I hate to even call it a language, remains in place I'll never try again. It's simply not worth the time and effort.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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DeltaMasterMind
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Old September 15th, 2017, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
That it has been done badly for a long time is even more reason to change it not more reason to continue doing things the bad way.
Same goes for so many other programming languages. Sure perhaps in time the dev team could make a comprehensive GM tool that is as powerful as the editor, but doesn't make permanent changes to any files and yes we would all love to make everything we use perfect the way we want, yet sadly that is not being realistic. Granted alot of the code that is of issue for most is the interface when doing the changes you mentioned and it is possible to improve on that in the near future, but as far as the backend goes they have done well considering all the changes that had to be made to make it work with all the game systems that have been added over time.

Forum link for my content work:
Pathfinder Thread
Forum link for SU 5e content work:
5e Steven Universe Thread
This link is for my group, but feel free to play it with:
DMM 5e | "https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsd9w1eodlnwjq0/updatesDMM.xml?dl=1" Copy this link to your update manager to get updates when available.
This adds the Pisky subrace to elves from Berserk! and additional subraces for the Gem Race.
Please post comments in the provided threads above.
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kbs666
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Old September 15th, 2017, 07:42 PM
I'm not asking for a GM tool. I've got that.

I need a character manager. Specifically I need one that can be customized for my campaign with a minimum of time and hassle.

Ideally A gm should be able to define a settings file that is mostly just a list of settings for the game system in question. Allow this, don't that sort of thing. This is obviously possible in HL, see for example the PFS option. But doing it myself? I tried. After several attempts, a couple of which broke HL in ways that required reinstalls and asking questions and following examples I found here, I gave it up as not worth the time invested.

No tool should be that hard to use, that poorly documented and obscure. Fixing it when they switch platforms is the obvious answer. Carrying over an anchor around their necks is a bad idea.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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EightBitz
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Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,446

Old September 17th, 2017, 05:29 PM
I have had a lot of frustrations with cusomizing Hero Lab. And sure, I wish it was simpler. A lot simpler. So many things I want to do in Hero Lab, I can do more easily in VB or PowerShell (for example). But those things are specific in scope.

Hero Lab is designed to accommodate any game system. GURPS, various iterations of D20, FATE, CoC, D&D 4E, Doctor Who, Savage Worlds, Cortex, and various others. It was designed to accommodate a large array of complex systems with different ways of determining different types of traits, powers, spells, conditions, penalties, effects ...

If they just focused on Pathfinder, or even just on D20, then yes. I would say it's too complex. But it's larger in scope than that.

Could it be simpler and easier to customize without losing its versatility and adaptability? Maybe. I don't know. But for anyone who's complaining, I invite you to list Hero Lab's closest competitors and compare and contrast.
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eruvanna
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 19

Old September 17th, 2017, 07:27 PM
just curious on if there has been an update to "Late September" as yet. This week, next week, pushed into October?
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talsharien
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Leeds UK
Posts: 175

Old September 17th, 2017, 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eruvanna View Post
just curious on if there has been an update to "Late September" as yet. This week, next week, pushed into October?
Nothing has been mentioned as yet.
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DeltaMasterMind
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 389

Old September 18th, 2017, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
I'm not asking for a GM tool. I've got that.

I need a character manager. Specifically I need one that can be customized for my campaign with a minimum of time and hassle.

Ideally A gm should be able to define a settings file that is mostly just a list of settings for the game system in question. Allow this, don't that sort of thing. This is obviously possible in HL, see for example the PFS option. But doing it myself? I tried. After several attempts, a couple of which broke HL in ways that required reinstalls and asking questions and following examples I found here, I gave it up as not worth the time invested.

No tool should be that hard to use, that poorly documented and obscure. Fixing it when they switch platforms is the obvious answer. Carrying over an anchor around their necks is a bad idea.
Perhaps I am not understanding your point of view, but it a simple light it seems you wish a way to simply and quickly send/distribute/switch between portfolio source listings? Say a quick switch window storing your different configurations so you can easily set all the sources and rules designated to that "campaign/load out" file. Perhaps additionally make those load outs easily available via extract-able file?

Forum link for my content work:
Pathfinder Thread
Forum link for SU 5e content work:
5e Steven Universe Thread
This link is for my group, but feel free to play it with:
DMM 5e | "https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsd9w1eodlnwjq0/updatesDMM.xml?dl=1" Copy this link to your update manager to get updates when available.
This adds the Pisky subrace to elves from Berserk! and additional subraces for the Gem Race.
Please post comments in the provided threads above.
DeltaMasterMind is offline   #49 Reply With Quote
nylanfs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 136

Old September 18th, 2017, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
Normally you have pretty smart ideas but this is just crazy talk.

So you want the several millions lines of scripts that are running under HL to be re-written? All the community packs all the files on home PCs and groups and all the 3PP addons and files. Not including all the lines of code that are written right now running all the games HL supports (d20, Pathfinder, 5e, MM, Shadowrun...) Its taken 10+ years for HL to have that code created by thousands of scripters. But you want that changed?

Sorry that is a plan that will sink LW. The scripting language works VERY well at what it does. If you actually spend time learning the language it has very good reasons for working the way it does. Its the VERY reason we all love HL is because of the very powerful language that Rob developed. Everyone here that likes HL needs to understand its because of the scripting language that you enjoy it. Its what drives 95% of what you see and get out of HL. You want to print a character sheet, or prepare a spell, or make something in the editor? Guess what you just touched something that was created with the HL scripting language.

They are correctly going to reuse all those millions lines of code already created as I guarantee that Starfinder started as a fork of Pathfinder. Then they made specific modifications for the UI and to improve some "legacy" ideas and features. But sense it started as a Fork of Pathfinder (as really Starfinder is only a little different from Pathfinder) and uses the HL scripting language means many will be able to jump right in and start coding Starfinder scripts. That is a positive and smart thing for LW to do.

Last point is the guys that are doing work for 3PP are paid on a very tight time schedule. Meaning you change the scripting language , all the time they have to re-learn, is time they will NOT make money. That is a bad thing as some are pretty dependent on the money they make from paid HL work.
^ This right here, you do NOT thow out the baby with the dishwater. Especially if you have non-programmer types that have learned the language enough to make contributions.

Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
PCGen BoD - PR Silverback
Forums: Nylanfs (or Nylan)

Hero Lab Shadowrun 4E & 5e user
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