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Imper1um
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Old March 5th, 2015, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirtos View Post
You're not considering if I do any work on maps, and am not ready to reveal. megs of data. But if its an option (whether its on by default or off by default doesnt matter) but it should be configured at the Realm Level. Its important to remember that not everyone's workflow is the same. For me, there are absolute advantages to keeping a published database and a working database (non published/non synced) and even you have a point about viewing, I can, and often do publish basic info, and then have that revealed and then update the tags and dont hide something already revealed but arent ready to publish. Thats my workflow.
Well, if you're talking about adding in a map, yeah, that's a few megs. But, the reveal data is a couple of kilobytes at most. If its more than that, something could be refactored to make the database smaller. Even adding one pin should just be a kilobyte or three. If you're working on the same map, generally, an update shouldn't be too intensive on the synchronization.

Yeah, my plan is, once the game starts flowing is that I will have entire articles with true, untrue and partially true information. If they reveal it, I click it, and they can see it when I sync next. I just wish that they could browse it immediately, while I'm playing. It gives them a way of "looking back at notes," without them asking for me to go to a certain topic on the big screen.

RE: Editing POR: What am I missing here? I don't see that button. I only see "View," no Edit buttons.
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mirtos
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Old March 5th, 2015, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
Well, if you're talking about adding in a map, yeah, that's a few megs. But, the reveal data is a couple of kilobytes at most. If its more than that, something could be refactored to make the database smaller. Even adding one pin should just be a kilobyte or three. If you're working on the same map, generally, an update shouldn't be too intensive on the synchronization.

Yeah, my plan is, once the game starts flowing is that I will have entire articles with true, untrue and partially true information. If they reveal it, I click it, and they can see it when I sync next. I just wish that they could browse it immediately, while I'm playing. It gives them a way of "looking back at notes," without them asking for me to go to a certain topic on the big screen.
At this point we're arguing for no purpose. I'm just saying you need to consider other peoples workflows before doing something like an auto-sync. For me it would cause issues. Even if its not just about the player. There are other workflow reasons to not auto publish as well. (and its not just about reveals). If there were an option to enable or disable it, then it doesnt matter.


But as for the other things, constant saves, even if its only a couple of KB, it COULD be a performance concern if enough people are doing it. And im not talking performance on your end, or performance on your players end. You have to consider the system as a whole. A lot of it could in theory depend on how the website is going to handle syncs. Is it going to be based on browser fresh, or a more modern technology allowing push data (like angular/node). Whenever dealing with infrastructure like this, there are always lots of things to consider.

So the real question is when doing something like this: cost/benefits.

Do the benefits of auto sync outweight the costs? Possibly. We know the benefits, but not really. (how many people would use it... are they more like you, or more like me?) Dont know the costs either.

Now I would like a notification system so that when I publish, all my players are aware of it.

As for the HL thing- I will let Shadow respond. My windows machine has been down for a few days, so im rebuilding so dont have RW in front of me (which is why i was probably giving misinformation - again, sorry about that)

Last edited by mirtos; March 5th, 2015 at 09:56 PM.
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Vargr
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Old March 5th, 2015, 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
2. Draw on the Map
I would love to be able to create overlays, such as circles, rectangles and such on maps. A great feature would be to draw "paths," so they can see where the NPCs are going. Same with adding text. Heck, if I could create a region, by drawing a circle or rectangle or any other shape, and then be able to link that shape to an article, it would be amazing. As it stands now, I have to create another map for every Provence.
Good idea.
And if you could hide/reveal/link etc. such circles/reactangles/wutnot it would be powerful.
I could have a circle somewhere on the map and when they locate the enemy buildup I could reveal a circle and say: "It is in the that area, as you can see too close for comfort to the crossing point".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
3. Update all Articles with Mentions of this Article
If I create an Article, I want the ability to have the system scan all articles in the entire campaign with mentions of that name, and make links if I need to. Right now, I have to go back and open each article and make sure mentions are linked.
Agreed. I do believe that this is one of those nice little things that will happen in an update somewhere down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
5. Synchronize needs to happen automatically.
The idea behind the cloud is that it is always updated. When I make a save, that edit should be queued to be added to the Cloud. This is vital for my next problem.
Yes - and no.
I too would like the system to able to do so.

However, I don't like the "update all constantly" solution.

I would prefer a little button sitting left to the "Edit" button the topic heading, looking like the sync icon on the "splash screen".

If I press this button that topic - and that topic alone - is synced immediately with the players' Realm Works.

The icon should be red when the topic is not synced with the players and green when it is.

Of course, you should still be able to "sync all" - also from within the realm. That option could be placed in the "Manage" menu.

I do believe this will happen somewhere down the road (I certainly hope so - but calendars first! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
6. Connected players should be notified when new information has been synchronized to the Cloud, or, better yet, their Campaign should automatically update with the new information, without leaving the Realm.
An indication that there is reason to sync, yes. Not forcibly do it.

There can be a number of reasons for this - as this:
Imagine the GM sitting home one night and updating the realm.
Then imagine the player sitting elsewhere with just enough internet connection for a lousy email exchange and leisurely reading through the topics in Realm Works - and BAM! Realm Works starts synching. A nightmare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
7. I wish I could give information to just one player.
In the works already - if I have read it correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
8. Where is the Key/Value Text?
I wish I could create a Key/Value Text, just because I'm OCD. I'm not talking about Tags. I'm talking: "Physical Description: An ornate grey building, this temple to Veiloaria offers respite to any worshippers and travellers."
Could you elaborate on this, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
9. Why are Keys limited to so little characters?
I found this as a problem when I'm entering dates. I would love to be able to put in Arrived (Continent Name): MM/dd/yyyy
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
10. For all that is HOLY, allow us to ENTER in dates.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
11. When displaying the Timeline, the article name should be second.
The Timeline *needs* to be displayed like this:
- <GAME DATE> <KEY> <ARTICLE> <ADDENDUM>
Agreed.



Sorry for the long post.

Vargr
Deputy Calendar Champion


Legend has it, that the Tarrasque is a huge fighting beast, perpetually hungry.
Sleet entered History when he managed to get on the back of a Tarrasque only to be ridden out of History shortly after.

Using Realm Works, Worldographer (Hexographer 2), LibreOffice, Daz3D Studio, pen & paper for the realm World of Temeon and the system LEFD - both homebrewed.


Last edited by Vargr; March 5th, 2015 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Silly typos.
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Parody
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Old March 5th, 2015, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imper1um View Post
RE: Editing POR: What am I missing here? I don't see that button. I only see "View," no Edit buttons.
Click Edit first. The Topic/Article needs to be in Edit mode to show that button.

ObTopic:
1. Is there as mentioned (Ctrl-Q for Quick Create), though it'd be nice to have it in the Context Menu as well.
2. I haven't done much mapping yet. Other threads on this theme I found by searching this forum for "region": Overlays for Smart Images, An alternative to pins on maps. There's probably more if you do more searches.
3. Already in the works.
4. Yeah, they chose to remember the last set of settings instead. (Create Contained Topic/Article is Quick Create.)
5, 6. I'd rather not, personally, but then again I work offline most of the time. There's a bunch of syncing improvements on their radar.
7. Already in the works. ("Individual Character Reveal" is what folks call it.)
8. Do you mean a Text Snippet with a label? We've gone around on that one before: Text with title.
9. Define your own Category and they can be longer. Otherwise, this belongs in its own request thread.
10. The Gregorian Calendar is defined using RW's custom calendar functionality and it needs a bunch of UI work. They've acknowledged this.
11. They should probably be switchable, much like many other multicolumn listboxes in Windows.


Last edited by Parody; March 5th, 2015 at 10:39 PM.
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Imper1um
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Old March 7th, 2015, 06:17 AM
Just note this is all of the issues I've experienced. Its just really annoying. I'd love to force an update when possible.

One thing people aren't considering, and they are thinking, is that Synchronization requires the *entire* file to be redistributed. However, with how synchronization works, unless its the first execution, you're not distributing the entire file, just what was modified. You'll notice this when you synchronize first, it can take up to a minute (depending on internet connection), but when you do a synchronize after-the-fact, you're only updating for a few seconds.

This would be the same for if an auto-synchronize happened. A few bytes or kilobytes. Even the worst connection would have no problem dealing with it, unless you're on 5800 Baud Modems. A single reveal is a single bit, with a location identifier (so, 2-15 bytes). Adding in 500 characters to a single item would be 500 bytes. Truly, synchronizing automatically would cause less bandwidth usage than if you accessed Facebook. The *only* time that you're going to run into a single-item update will cause a huge update is if the GM drops a huge high-resolution map. With this, its probably vital that background downloading would need to exist, so the player can continue to read while a synchronize happens, then update once the synchronize completes.

The thing is, an auto-synchronize cannot be implemented as-is. Its dumb, because the Synchronize system as it stands now is slow, obtrusive, and annoying. It pops up a dialog box, takes a few seconds to ramp up, downloads for a few seconds, then a few seconds to implement the changes, before it releases control. Synchronization would *need* to happen on a background thread. While a synchronize happens, the user would need to be notified with a circling "synchronizing" icon, but, besides that, they should not be interrupted in any way. Unless the article being synchronized is the one that is being modified by the sync, they wouldn't notice the difference between before Sync and post Sync.

Fortunately, you're all saying "RealmWorks is database-based." That's great! Database structures were built with multi-access in mind. Even NoSQL is built around allowing multiple processes and threads to access the database.

Multi-Threading isn't easy, and, at the moment, it looks like no (or just single job multi-threading) multi-threading is done. Its unfortunate, because this is what I expected of RealmWorks, that the system would operate on a Multi-Thread System, where updates can be done independently of the user's UI updates, allowing for the GMs to make modifications and update players immediately.

Now, why is this important? Well, I'm trying to keep up with technology. When I saw RealmWorks, I saw it as a solution to the distraction of Technology. Nowadays, half of my groups have Laptops, and everyone has a smartphone. If I engage them by allowing them to look up elements on the fly, they would be engaged with the game, and I don't have to be that "Old Grandpa" that tells "those whippersnappers to put away their laptops." They are engaged in the game, and I'm not the enemy. I see this as a tool to make them enjoy my game, while making them focused on the game. They can explore my rich world at their leisure. I don't have to spend vital time when someone asks a question on something that happened before, they can just look at RealmWorks, and their answer is revealed. I continue telling the story, and they find out information when they want/need to.

As it stands, RealmWorks is half of this. Auto-sync is something that I have to stand firm that it must implement, otherwise, it simply only serves as a way of aggregating my thoughts independent of a book or such. There is almost no reason for anyone in my group to purchase a "player license." The tools are there, I just wish it strived to be a little better.

Last edited by Imper1um; March 7th, 2015 at 06:19 AM.
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pyremius
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Old March 7th, 2015, 08:53 AM
While I would dearly love background auto-syncing (I'm horrible about remembering to sync and log out), I see a few instances where it would be bad:

Metered internet: I don't want to lose chat/email capability just because I'm spending the evening creating Hero Lab portfolios for future encounters, or editing maps.

Limited-bandwidth environments (game stores, conventions): saturating the bandwidth by having everyone downloading updates all the time (don't forget the bandwidth needed to query for the existence of updates, which happens even when there are no updates) is not something that will make the game store owner or convention organizer inclined to look favorably upon your presence, when it means they cannot get their own work done.

For these instances (and others like them), I would hope to see auto-syncing something that can be toggled easily, alongside a button for manual syncing.
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Imper1um
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Old March 7th, 2015, 09:51 AM
Again, I'm wondering if you all realize how much bandwidth that is *not* being used. You use more bandwidth by browsing Facebook, than Realm Works. If you watch a single YouTube video (even in 480p), you're still using a boat load of bandwidth.

You're overestimating how much updates need to be done. Its not like an MMO, where you are constantly streaming kilobytes of information constantly. At most, you'll have a kilobyte of in/out to "ping" for updates every 30-60 seconds, then, when an update occurs, its just the size of the information. I just made an update, where I added an entire paragraph of story information, and the database increased by 300 kilobytes. If you're so strapped for bandwidth that 300 kilobytes is killing your metered connection, you might want to consider removing Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram from your phone, because you will exceed 300 kilobytes just by loading the HTML Page of Facebook, not even the content that it loads as well, even on Mobile.
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mirtos
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Old March 7th, 2015, 06:07 PM
Imper1um > You are correct that the amount of bandwith involved is not very much. And I do see your point on where you are coming from, on why it is important to you. I know that devices in game can sometimes be distracting.

Many people in this forum are technical. Some of us are developers that understand some of the intricacies and complexities in these sorts of requests.

Things tend to be more complex than just bandwith. There are two ways to do this. Push technology and polling technology. Both have problems. Especially when you are taking servers. If things were just about bandwith, you would be 1000% correct. Hell, you might still be correct, as none of us can really speak intelligently about the infrastructure in place. That being said, since syncs are already in place, maybe all that has been considered. So I'm willing to drop the technical argument and go back to the user-case one.

Assume for a minute that there are no performance concerns in mind, that still doesnt negate my point that auto sync should still be optional.

I generally am opposed to software that does forced updates without approval, I honestly believe notifications are a better method, at least for software that exists on someone's computer.

Everyone is going to have a different workflow. it sounds like that for your workflow its a necessity. For my workflow, it would be extremely problematic. Thats something to consider when making requests, something that accommodates multiple workflows. There's going to be some really odd workflows that you probably havent considered, but have to absolutely be considered when you do this.

So I would, at the very least, alter your suggestion to two realm level settings:

Setting 1: Auto Sync upon Saves
Setting 2: Notify Sync/Force Sync to "watchers" (this would be players and/or the new observer role that is also being suggested.

To be honest, Im not sure this is enough for some of the more interesting workflows out there.

Last edited by mirtos; March 7th, 2015 at 06:49 PM.
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Imper1um
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Old March 7th, 2015, 07:01 PM
I would not mind a choice. Choice is always good... just it has to be chosen by the GM.

Like I said, I can understand when you don't want to sync (no internet), but my entire workflow would be sooo much better if I had the option to synchronize every time I hit the save button, and the players connected at that time would be updated as soon as I do that. It would speed things up considerably for me.

I'm just sayin' that it needs to at least be an option to sync every time I hit save. Even if it was just that it synced as it stands (dialog box, blocking UI thread), I still want the option, and I still want users to be at least notified when the current realm is out of date while they are watching the realm, even if its one notification when I do a sync on my end.

I'm willing to let a simple implementation of this happen first, with a future update to make syncing more robust...like other cloud services.
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Farling
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Old March 7th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargr View Post
I would prefer a little button sitting left to the "Edit" button the topic heading, looking like the sync icon on the "splash screen".

If I press this button that topic - and that topic alone - is synced immediately with the players' Realm Works.

The icon should be red when the topic is not synced with the players and green when it is.
A "sync only this topic" wouldn't work where you have new links appearing in the topic that are related to topics that you aren't yet synced. The links are created locally on your PC before being uploaded to the server, so these would become broken links in the player's copy.

There are (most likely) other dependencies that are affected in a similar manner.
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