Future of Army Builder?

At 08:53 AM 4/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Webmaster" <webmaster@blee.biz>
> > I don't
> > think AB has much to worry about. It already has an
> > established consumer base, it is a generic program
> > that works for almost every known wargame known to man
> > currently in play
>
>I'm not so sure. Consider the problems www.warhammer40K.com had recently.
>The following is taken from the letter they received from the GW legal
>department:
>
>====
>* Acceptable army builders and roster makers must conform with the following
>criteria:
>
>a) the builder must not prevent the user from building an illegal army
> ("illegal" in this context meaning illegal in gaming terms)
>b) the builder must not inform the user if they have built an illegal army
>c) the builder must require the user to consult the relevant codex
>d) the builder must not devalue the codex that it is derived from
>e) the builder must not contain any text on the rules.
>====

Army Builder doesn't do any of this. The data files do. And Lone Wolf
doesn't distribute the data files. It's a subtle, but important, point.

What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not
allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official
tournaments. (A tactic I've heard of before.)

E


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That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their
miniatures, so doing the same thing with software seems like a reasonable
next step. I don't think that GW can stop AB supporting their games, but
insisting that rosters be done by hand or by IAL is an interresting idea.
Other random thoughts:
How many people use unofficial, or wrong miniatures in their games?
Doesn't AB support addons so that I can customise the output for printing to
make it look like anything I want? Perhaps even the output from IAL?
What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no
official equivalent for Warhammer.
What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but are
real 40K armies?
What about bugs in IAL? If the printout says that an army costs 1400
points, but you 'know' it costs 1500 after doing the same army by hand,
which is right, and which gets into a tournament?
Could they use rules like that for things like RT tournaments?



...regan
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Landes [mailto:eric@landesfamily.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:22 AM
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder?


At 08:53 AM 4/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Webmaster" <webmaster@blee.biz>
> > I don't
> > think AB has much to worry about. It already has an
> > established consumer base, it is a generic program
> > that works for almost every known wargame known to man
> > currently in play
>
>I'm not so sure. Consider the problems www.warhammer40K.com had recently.
>The following is taken from the letter they received from the GW legal
>department:
>
>====
>* Acceptable army builders and roster makers must conform with the
following
>criteria:
>
>a) the builder must not prevent the user from building an illegal army
> ("illegal" in this context meaning illegal in gaming terms)
>b) the builder must not inform the user if they have built an illegal army
>c) the builder must require the user to consult the relevant codex
>d) the builder must not devalue the codex that it is derived from
>e) the builder must not contain any text on the rules.
>====

Army Builder doesn't do any of this. The data files do. And Lone Wolf
doesn't distribute the data files. It's a subtle, but important, point.

What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not
allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official
tournaments. (A tactic I've heard of before.)

E



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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> So basically, AB can violate A and B, plus depending on the
interpretation,
> listing stats as WS, BS, etc. contains text from the rules right? Not to
> mention, listing that a Space Marine has a bolter or that something cuases
> fear devalues the codex. Seems like you could fight it, but in a legal
war
> of attrition, who has the more money: GW or Lone Wolf?

AB doesnt violate anything in GW's books. The stand-alone AB program is as
much good as a chocolate fireguard. Only when you introduce datafiles does
AB function, and that function is based on the 'programming' within the
datafiles. Therefore, Wolflair is immune to GW's legal eagles.

> I think AB is safe but IMO the survivability of the AB files may be in
> doubt.

Only if GW's info is kept inside the GW-based datafiles.

> AND if GW shuts down the distribution sites for the files then the
> _program_ is useless.

Incorrect. AB would still function for non-GW datafiles.


Jimi



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> That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their
> miniatures,

GW events expect GW models to be used - if you turn up with a Rackham army
then expect it to be refused entry.

> What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no
> official equivalent for Warhammer.

If the 40k IAL works and sells well, then I can see a Warhammer version.

> What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but are
> real 40K armies?

That puts us in the same boat as we have now with 40k armies not appearing
in the 40k datafiles - its a wait and see scenario.

> What about bugs in IAL?

Yeah!! Damn those Tyranids!! :-P

Seriously, I'd expect the same type of customer support that other software
gets - you find a bug and send details to the software company and then wait
for a fix.

> If the printout says that an army costs 1400
> points, but you 'know' it costs 1500 after doing the same army by hand,
> which is right, and which gets into a tournament?

If it can be proven that the electronic version is screwed then thats a bug
and thus you report it. As to which one gets into a tournie, well that
depends on any checking method employed by the tournie organizers.


Jimi



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Yes,
I don't believe the situation is as dire as some
people may think. LoneWolf makes a product that
depends on datafiles to work. Not only datafiles for
GW games, but datafiles for a wide variety of games.
As has been said, LW doesn't make the
datafiles...users of AB do. I can see GW going a step
further than what Gene has said. GW could force LW to
remove the search for recent updated datafiles (or at
least modify it so that no datafiles for GW games
would appear). As Gene has said, it would be
difficult for GW to enforce people not making
datafiles for GW games. Not that GW would have done
this, but I think they'd have been better officially
licensing LW to handle GW datafiles and such.

--- Gene <gcc@siegetower.com> wrote:
> >
> > Since GW doesn't have anything like an OGL they
> can just
> > order LoneWolf to stop supporting their products.
> Anyone
> > who's been gaming for long enough knows that GW
> would
> > do exactly that to anything that dares compete
> with their
> > own products.
> >
> ===================
> this will probably be almost impossible to enforce,
> seeing that the
> Datafiles are not written by Lone Wolf, but by users
> not affiliated with
> Lone Wolf. All LW COULD be made to do is ask end
> users not to use/write
> datafiles for GW games, which in turn LW could not
> enforce. IF GW could
> enforce this, they would have years ago.
>
> Gene
>
>
>
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Have you ever heard of an open source program called DeCSS? People
thought the same thing about that, and then the movie industry dragged
a 16 year old kid through court to prove them wrong. Now thanks to the
US government it is ILLEAGAL to play DVDs on your Linux box.

If you were distributing the datafiles on your website and a lawyer
from GW called and demanded that you desist would you risk your financial
well being on principle?

Making Lone Wolf remove the datafiles from the autoupdate would be as
trivial as having their lawyer send him a letter.

GW has forced quite a few sites that are critical of them to disist using
their graphics on their websites (Cult of the Rogue Trader most
prominantly)
long after those sites went up. If you're the owner of an IP then you can,
are obligated to actually, force others to stop using it.

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:04:56 -0800, Gene <gcc@siegetower.com> wrote:

>>
>> Since GW doesn't have anything like an OGL they can just
>> order LoneWolf to stop supporting their products. Anyone
>> who's been gaming for long enough knows that GW would
>> do exactly that to anything that dares compete with their
>> own products.
>>
> ===================
> this will probably be almost impossible to enforce, seeing that the
> Datafiles are not written by Lone Wolf, but by users not affiliated with
> Lone Wolf. All LW COULD be made to do is ask end users not to use/write
> datafiles for GW games, which in turn LW could not enforce. IF GW could
> enforce this, they would have years ago.
>
> Gene
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



--


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On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:46:20 +0100, Jimi <jimi@tubman.fsbusiness.co.uk>
wrote:

>> That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their
>> miniatures,
>
> GW events expect GW models to be used - if you turn up with a Rackham
> army
> then expect it to be refused entry.

But it would be so funny to see the looks on the organizers faces. I've
often thought of scaring up models from a bygone age like the "beaky"
space marines for a GT. Just to see their forehead veins bulge.

"Look, these are GW models!"

>
>> What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no
>> official equivalent for Warhammer.
>
> If the 40k IAL works and sells well, then I can see a Warhammer version.

And a version for all their other games too. Probably a version that you'd
have to buy separately for each one.

>
>> What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but
>> are
>> real 40K armies?
>
> That puts us in the same boat as we have now with 40k armies not
> appearing
> in the 40k datafiles - its a wait and see scenario.

Indeed, but given GW's history I'd put money on GW jerking Lone Wolf
around. Good riddance, the more people they alienate and drive away
from their crap games the better.

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...What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not
allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official
tournaments...

This is the strategy that I would expect. The existing Interative Army List
(IAL) already has a pre-defined tournament roster output and carries a note
that your roster MUST be submitted in this format.

Personally, I happen to prefer IAL for 40k. It has a couple of irritating
features (it talks on the default setting) but produces a very nice print
out FOR ONE GAME but then I dare say Army Builder would be a bit prettier
if it only had one system to accommodate.

They might waste time in chasing down the on-line data-files but I don't
think they'll have much success although they could conceivable insist that
a few of the bigger more conspicuous hosts drop them. On the whole, I don't
think it would do them much good to take on Army Builder as for the
foreseeable future it will carry support far more of their game systems
than they do.

If you are primarily interested in GW then you're probably going to stumble
across and purchase their programme a long time before you discover Army
Builder anyway. If GW doesn't dominate your game time then Army Builder
will remain as useful as it always has been.

---Steven



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> But it would be so funny to see the looks on the organizers faces. I've
> often thought of scaring up models from a bygone age like the "beaky"
> space marines for a GT. Just to see their forehead veins bulge.

Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there (unless said organizers
are so anal as to ban non-current models)

> And a version for all their other games too. Probably a version that you'd
> have to buy separately for each one.

If its GW then you'll have to buy everything - GW dont do 'free' :-P


Jimi



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[Colen]

At 10:44 PM 4/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>...What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not
>allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official
>tournaments...
>
>This is the strategy that I would expect. The existing Interative Army List
>(IAL) already has a pre-defined tournament roster output and carries a note
>that your roster MUST be submitted in this format.
>
>Personally, I happen to prefer IAL for 40k. It has a couple of irritating
>features (it talks on the default setting) but produces a very nice print
>out FOR ONE GAME but then I dare say Army Builder would be a bit prettier
>if it only had one system to accommodate.

Using the 'custom output extensions' mechanism within Army Builder, you can
do this - if you take a look at the CAV datafiles, they have a quite pretty
'datacard printer' included. Using the ABPrint source code included with
the construction kit (I think), it should be quite feasible for someone
familiar with C++ to create an extension that outputs in 'GW tournament
format'. (You could really write it in any language you liked, as long as
you knew how to write code to print documents in it.)


--
Colen McAlister (colen@wolflair.com)
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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