A word to the wise for the complainers

I'm posting this in its own thread so that LWD can kill it with fire if they want to, but I've been wanting to say something for a while, now.

I've seen an increasing number of complaints that LWD haven't met their release schedule for Realm Works. These complaints invariably come from people who didn't back the Kickstarter, because those of us who did have actually got RW now.

I get it, I really do. This software is the dogs bollocks (UK English colloquialism - look it up) of campaign management software. It is unique, flexible, powerful, and a one-stop shop for handling complex worlds.

It also isn't finished, yet.

There are some things still outstanding before LWD think it should be launched to the general public, and I agree with their decision.

LWD are not beholden to a publisher. They don't have to meet anyone else's release schedule, no matter the state of the software. They have decided that it needs to meet a particular level of stability and functionality, and they are not going to release it until it does.

That's a pretty brave move in today's "I want it now, so I'll get what there is" marketplace.

Time and again, LWD have explained themselves, and they really shouldn't need to.

Now, here's how I see things. I backed the Kickstarter. I put my money into this project. I applied for the beta, but didn't get in. I really, really, REALLY wanted this software, or something like it. So I fronted enough cash to get early access (and more). And I have not once complained, even when they first said EA would be in May, and June came around with nothing. Yes, people, I gave them money and got nothing when they said I would, and I didn't complain.

So I simply cannot understand how anyone who has not paid LWD a single cent for RW can choose to complain about not having it.

Yes, I understand that you want to give them your money, and get the product in return. No worries, there. But they will not take it from you until you can be given what you pay for.

Please stop complaining that you don't have RW, yet. It's coming. It will be awesome, and it will be everything you hope it will be, and it will be functional and stable.

This.

Having seen the evolutions, I'm more and more thankful that time and time again they've gone with the right approach rather than the fast but wrong one.

And like Chemlak, I experienced the frustrations of seeing the early release being pushed back month after month after month, so I empathize to a large degree. Believe me, I do.

And understand, for almost of the vocal Kickstarter backers you'll see here - we all went through it and this was for software we pledged (and spent) money on before seeing even the early access release!

Heck, we used to joke around about meeting at the RW Bar, because several were checking the KS page every hour or so, around certain milestones, again even before the early release.

So I get the impatience, to a point...which ends with those of you who didn't back the KS, who didn't take a leap of faith on a project with your own cash will have missed those bad days of the summer. No, you'll be able to safely and securely see a polished release version with way more functionality and less problems than we saw and you'll be able to do so without risk.

So yeah, that's where my empathy ends. I understand the impatience, heck we were there too (and I'd wager we had it worse than you). I just don't get the sense of entitlement.

So call us fanbois or whatnot. It doesn't change our being where you've been - only we also see the software a little sooner than you, the good parts and the bad parts. In exchange, you'll get to see a much better product and decide after you see if it's right for you.

The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.

Edit: After reading some of the bugs still ongoing and their severity, I am significantly more ok with things than I was when I wrote the above. I still am hoping to see a pre-release soon!

KefkaZ said:

The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.

Edit: After reading some of the bugs still ongoing and their severity, I am significantly more ok with things than I was when I wrote the above. I still am hoping to see a pre-release soon!

Click to expand...

That is a great post, complainer or not.

If they have to release it before it is ready, it just makes it harder for them to fix the bugs.

That is why most software has closed BETAs to start. Then they open up when ready. The prerelease stuff Steam does is a fairly new phenomenon.

Code Monkey Publishing and Fluid Entertainment both tried to take on a task such as RealmWorks or HeroLabs. Both took pre-orders and both failed miserably.

These guys have built something way better than I hoped. They update and fix things all the time. Let them give you a product that you can appreciate and on that they can be proud of. Trust me, it is worth the wait.

KefkaZ said:

The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.

Click to expand...

This. I only recently started getting into traditional RPGs recently. I'm trying to get things together to DM a campaign and I am dumbfounded by how hard it is to keep my stuff organized. Then I discovered RealmWorks a few months ago and instantly thought "THIS IS WHAT I NEED". Now, several months later after promises and promises it still appears no closer to release. If I had known about the kickstarter and been interested in RPGs back when I would have gladly paid the $80 for beta.

What frustrates me the most is they refuse to just "shut up and take my money".

Let me be clear here that I am frustrated with the lack of a public RW release, but I am not in any way saying they should rush this out the door.

My frustration comes from the repeated inability to properly set expectations. I missed the Kickstarter, but in March I looked at the July date and shrugged. It really wasn't that much of a wait. When July came around I checked on it again and it had changed to October. Fine. Delays (especially with kickstarters) happen. Then in October, it went to "fall 2013." So, I checked throughout the fall and saw a possible pre-release by Christmas.

I look back now and realize it has been almost 10 months since I missed the Kickstarter by a few days. It has been a roller coaster of anticipation that has gotten old.

Hell, I would gladly throw $100 at LWD for pre-release access to RW and sign an NDA right now, but I have asked repeatedly and been told no.

There is nothing else to do but wait at this point and hope I still have the same level of interest if/when it does hit the public market.

Fwiw, I completely understand the frustrations expressed here and empathize with you folks.

Kefkaz - I haven't lately experienced any of the show-stopping bugs that others have report, and yet every hour I still manually export my database just in case because one of the early crashes caused me to completely re-enter the ICONS rules in my realm. They only recently (relatively speaking) added all of the Kickstarters to the testing pool, so who knows what else we'll find that could go out and bite someone when it's released?

I think part of the disconnect may be the thinking/terminology used - IME, Realm Works is amazing when it works, but if you ask the people who've had major problems, it's not ready for release. Likely the truth lies between, but I'd say closer to amazing at this point, something I couldn't have said when we got into the Early Access Pre-Release.

Mead - we said the same thing before we got into the Early Access - for three months - "Let us in, we know we'll have problems, it's no sweat!" One of the things that was pointed out, and I'd suspect this to be as true or more true now, is that you start in a small circle of testers so you only have to deal with a small number of reports/issues, likely the most obvious/common ones. Then you expand, and expand later, but you only do so when you think you can handle the volume of problems/questions, of that bigger circle and also that of your current one.

Just looking at rough, public numbers, they added 49 people to the beta team right after the KS ended. The minute they flipped the switch on Early Access, they added 650 people testing, reporting, asking, etc. That's not insignificant.

ifandbut - It was amazing how many of us used MS OneNote or some freeware alternative. I used notepad for the most part. Yes, notepad. I think RW will be a boon for new users, when it comes out, but I think perhaps one of the more frustrating things to you may be that you don't see the constant updates and new features that are added (and thus scratched off the "Must complete before 1.0 release"), like Cloud Syncing. Yes, I can now save a realm to the cloud. W00t. We've been waiting on it forever and just got it a few days ago. It's actually a big milestone, but a milestone is all it is.

For example, some people may jump on that and scream out, "They can Sync to the Cloud! RW is READY! RELEASE IT NAO!!!111!!!" Or some local variation.

However, it's not even close. I can sync to the cloud...and sync back down. I can't share information, I can only sync from one screen currently...and I can't be logged in the realm when I do it. There's been oddities when syncing on one computer and trying to sync on another. So yeah, at this point it's basically the same as exporting (backing up) my realm to a file and putting the file in my dropbox folder. Those are only some of the current limitations, but I think illustrative of the disconnect between people with different expectations trying to fit the same terminology to fit their own perspectives, which is perfectly understandable.

As for the money thing, I think a lot of it has to do with the above regarding adding even more people and their reports to have to deal with. Not counting people who increased their pledges to get Early Access, over 700 more people have been using, reporting, suggesting, and whatnot from the time the KS ended to now. It may simply be that they have enough of that they can handle - I seem to remember a time in the past where it took someone like Liz 20 minutes per person to configure your account to use the server for the first time. We simply don't know what other such steps may be involved that would be on the "v1.0 To Do List".

fhscholl - Setting expectations: All I can say is you're welcome to mosey up to the Realm Works Bar with the rest of us regulars. Every delay you saw until what, close to August(?) were ones we thought may be the one to let us in...of course, they also delayed the release to the public by just as long, so you're all invited.

delays are delays and it happens, but it's the thorough lack of communication that upsets the fans and those of us that missed out or couldn't back the project at the time. I for one do not believe in backing something that is a "promise"...we "promise" to make this product if you give us your money. I'm not saying Lone Wolf is a shady company but projects do become bigger than expected or something major occurs within the company and they just can't work on it anymore and project gets scrapped, my money is now wasted as those resources have already likely been spent. I will however give money to something that is "early access" as I have something I can sink my teeth into and watch it grow, it's a fairly new concept (thats become popular) and it's working.

I respect a company that wants to release a product "when it's ready" and I will wait patiently but what I do not respect is a lack of communication to the community. Sometimes it's days between posts and prior to that it was worse, and they made the mistake of giving too narrow of a time frame for expected release windows for various stages of development. You disappoint less when you keep release info more vague and after you are sure you can hit a specific date then you give specifics. Instead of saying release in july then push it to sept and then sept comes and it's changed to oct then finally changed to maybe by christmas time they should have indicated maybe Q4 2013 to Q1 2014 but then keep the community posted with regular updates.

Honestly no matter what people would be upset. Its the nature of the beast. If LWD had never put out any sort of date, if for instance it just said "coming soon" with no date, then people would still get upset because "soon" shouldn't mean such a long period of time or what not. If we were getting daily updates people would complain that too much time and energy was being put into keeping us up to date, that time and energy should be used to get the product into our hands. If they released it with bugs it should have spent more time in development. When it spends too much time in development, it should be released now!
"...You can never please all of the people all of the time" has never been more true, especially in this day and age when we can all voice our opinions in relative anonymity on message boards. Face we are all going to be upset. I'm going to be upset, you're going to upset, I'm sure LWD is even upset. We all know that coming onto the forums and complaining won't do us any good, or the project any good, but we do it because for a small moment maybe it makes us feel better, I say we all just need to take a deep breath and understand that no matter what we do RW is going to come when it comes, and no amount of belly aching on our side is going to induce this labor any sooner.

Zinquox said:

Honestly no matter what people would be upset. Its the nature of the beast. If LWD had never put out any sort of date, if for instance it just said "coming soon" with no date, then people would still get upset because "soon" shouldn't mean such a long period of time or what not. If we were getting daily updates people would complain that too much time and energy was being put into keeping us up to date, that time and energy should be used to get the product into our hands. If they released it with bugs it should have spent more time in development. When it spends too much time in development, it should be released now!
"...You can never please all of the people all of the time" has never been more true, especially in this day and age when we can all voice our opinions in relative anonymity on message boards. Face we are all going to be upset. I'm going to be upset, you're going to upset, I'm sure LWD is even upset. We all know that coming onto the forums and complaining won't do us any good, or the project any good, but we do it because for a small moment maybe it makes us feel better, I say we all just need to take a deep breath and understand that no matter what we do RW is going to come when it comes, and no amount of belly aching on our side is going to induce this labor any sooner.

Click to expand...

Very well said sir!

Just my two pence worth

I've been following RW since I heard about its conception on Kickstarter and I'm as interested now as I was back then. The one disappointing aspect of RW so far is nothing to do with the actual product but instead to do with those who somehow feel they've been let down by LWD/RW slow release.

The question I find myself asking is how many of those who are unhappy with the slow release are software developers? If you are not then maybe do not understand the what goes into building something this large in scope from scratch. As it doesn't appear that LWD are a multi-million pound, multi-national corporation such as Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, Apple, Steinberg or IBM who can leverage huge amounts financial resources to finish a product we must show a level of perspective. Regarding what LWD have been able to achieve (which in my opinion from what I can see is superb) I think they've surpassed my very very high expectations and I will be glad of its release whenever it may show its face.

And ff you are a software developer then I would hope you could understand the slow arduous process which is software development. I am not one myself but I work alongside many in my job and I see the painstaking process.

The other light hearted question I want to ask is what did we do before RW?

Instead of waiting idly by for its release maybe, just maybe we should do what we all enjoy doing which is playing our games, reading, watching films or whatever is your medicine to whittle away the time

Rant over....I hope everyone enjoyed Xmas and has a fantastic New Year

Zinquox said:

Honestly no matter what people would be upset. Its the nature of the beast. ... I say we all just need to take a deep breath and understand that no matter what we do RW is going to come when it comes, and no amount of belly aching on our side is going to induce this labor any sooner.

Click to expand...

Nicely said!

enrious said:

Cloud Syncing

Click to expand...

This is the feature I cannot care less about. I have drop box for the cloud, it is free and has a ton of space, I dont have to pay a subscription every month to make sure I can access it.

From the outside it seems like cloud syncing is causing more issues then it is worth and is responsible for the big delays. Just give me a dam offline version.

ifandbut said:

This is the feature I cannot care less about. I have drop box for the cloud, it is free and has a ton of space, I dont have to pay a subscription every month to make sure I can access it.

From the outside it seems like cloud syncing is causing more issues then it is worth and is responsible for the big delays. Just give me a dam offline version.

Click to expand...

What do you think clod syncing is supposed to do? It's not about storing files like dropbox, you know. And I can say with some certainty that I'm pretty sure it isn't just cloud syncing. There have been some other issues and features that are still being finished up, I believe.

zarlor said:

What do you think clod syncing is supposed to do? It's not about storing files like dropbox, you know. And I can say with some certainty that I'm pretty sure it isn't just cloud syncing. There have been some other issues and features that are still being finished up, I believe.

Click to expand...

Yea this is nothing like dropbox in what it does. Its backup, its easy sync to multiple DM computers, its the easy community sharing of data (APs, Modules, NPCs), its 3PP selling realms, its DM sharing realms with himself, and the big one for me is sharing data with players. Then the ability to maybe allow players to add notes to NPCs and stuff. OMG that is sweet!

For myself the ability to easily share data with my players is my big want. That is one thing I have not found easy to do with any of my existing DM tools.

Also if Dropbox was to suddenly go away, which happens with many free services, all that capability and stuff is gone. I feel safer paying a company money to make sure my data remains safe and available. Just had this with a note taking app called NoteSpark on iOS. It was not a pay per month and they eventually after 5 years could not keep up the cost of the servers. So in two days the service is gone and all my notes with it.

I guess what I was referring to was that everything dealing with the cloud is low on my list for "must have" features. It would be nice for the future (assuming my online games stop never happening) but nothing I want at release.

The big reason I have been looking at Realm Works is the organization and world building because, honestly, I have no fucking clue how you veteran DMs keep everything strait.

It is helpful for that, in it's current state, but there are still a few crash bugs, likely unrelated to the cloud sync side (although possibly related) so cloud sync alone isn't necessarily the hold up. However it is an integral part of really being able to fully utilize RW at the table, so at least having the back-end capability in and tested is going to need to be there, whether we necessarily need it now or not, just because if they had to implement it after release there could be a HUGE impact on existing datasets out there. So having it in place before release is probably a pretty core aspect. Again, though, I don't think it's the only, or even necessarily the main, reason for the delays right now. I can say from testing with it that it looks to me, and I've done a LOT of beta testing before, like the software is very, very close to release ready. Heck for some companies it would have been out the door but then you'd have another Star Wars Online on your hands (i.e. software that was buggy and not at all ready to be released when it was and where release actually prevented or greatly slowed down progress on the software being able to even do many of the things it was supposed to from the beginning.)

As a DM for over 25 years, I can tell you that building a world is nothing more then putting pen to paper with all your ideas. Realm Works handles that well, but so does Word and OneNote.

The hard part of being a DM isn't remembering what you wrote, but what you shared, when you shared it and how you shared it. That is where Real Works is going to change how DMs do things at the table. That is what it is going to keep track of.

ifandbut said:

I guess what I was referring to was that everything dealing with the cloud is low on my list for "must have" features. It would be nice for the future (assuming my online games stop never happening) but nothing I want at release.

The big reason I have been looking at Realm Works is the organization and world building because, honestly, I have no fucking clue how you veteran DMs keep everything strait.

Click to expand...

Lots, and lots, and LOTS of paper. My house is crammed with it. Every now and then I open a file and find encounter notes from 1992. I have literally reams of adventure notes, settlement information, maps, plot ideas, monster stats, and characters. It's hugely disorganised (except for the stuff I'm working with right now) and a fair chunk of it pertains to the adventure I'm running right now. RW is letting me get it down in a coherent whole, and that is why I'm such a huge fan of it.

Speaking of problems with RW, though, a few updates ago, my current plotline got corrupted in an update. Every single plot connection vanished. I had something like 150 plot nodes that were previously in a beautiful web of connections, and suddenly all of those connections were gone. I had a choice: reconnect the plot, or lose everything (roughly 25 brand new, complete almanac entries) I'd done since I'd got that plot finished by restoring a backup. I decided to suck up restoring the plot because it was less work. All my other plots were fine, just that one screwed up. I make no pretence that RW is perfect: it's just better than anything else.