Lone Wolf Development Forums  

Go Back   Lone Wolf Development Forums > Hero Lab Forums > Hero Lab Online Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 7th, 2018, 01:14 AM
These have been reported via the official channels, but placing here for others reference.

Negative currency:

It's relatively easy to generate negative currency in error. Create a character, select a class, use the 'starting wealth' option to set initial starting wealth (normally 150sp for level 1 characters). Buy something (spend some of that silver). Return to the classes page and increase your character's level. Then use the 'starting wealth' option to reset starting wealth to match the new character level. This should generate the error message "You can't have a negative number of silver piece!"


Rogue Debilitating Strike:

Rogue feats building on the level 9 class feature (e.g. Tactical Debilitation) are permanently marked in red, with the error message "abRogDebilitatingStr required." appearing when they are selected.
taqvah is offline   #81 Reply With Quote
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 7th, 2018, 01:25 AM
And another one for good measure (also reported via the bug report feature):

I realise familiars were only recently implemented, but you may want to put a disclaimer on the master abilities 'Additional Cantrip' and 'Additional Spell' that they are not yet implemented, or (preferably) fix them. While you can select these abilities, you cannot currently add the cantrip or spell to your spell lists.
taqvah is offline   #82 Reply With Quote
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 7th, 2018, 02:20 AM
And one more for the hell of it, also reported via official channels:

Currently, for characters starting at a higher level, skill rank increases appear to be calculated as a single number, based on initial class ranks + intelligence modifier + skill ranks given per class level.

This can lead to incorrect skill ranks being applied. As its stands**, initial class ranks and int modifiers can only be applied to raising skills to a 'trained' level. Only the skill increases from gaining levels can increase these to expert or beyond. The increases between level 1 and level 7 can be applied to increase skills from trained to expert, those from 7th to 15th can also be used to increase signature skills from expert to master, and those from 15th to 20th can be used to increase from master to legendary.

With the current implementation in HeroLab online, any points from the pool can be used for any skill increase (though bounded by the level and signature skill restriction). However, this can incorrectly lead (for example) to a level 10 rogue being created with more than 3 master level skills.

*increases to intelligence after character creation are not generally addressed in the playtest book, aside from via the 'Potency' item attribute on pg150 which states in part "Increasing Intelligence lets the owner become trained in an additional skill". This would suggest that a +2 int bonus applied at level 15 can only be used in increasing a skill from untrained to trained.
taqvah is offline   #83 Reply With Quote
ShadowChemosh
Senior Member
Volunteer Data File Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chicago, IL (USA)
Posts: 10,400

Old September 7th, 2018, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taqvah View Post
And one more for the hell of it, also reported via official channels:

Currently, for characters starting at a higher level, skill rank increases appear to be calculated as a single number, based on initial class ranks + intelligence modifier + skill ranks given per class level.

This can lead to incorrect skill ranks being applied. As its stands**, initial class ranks and int modifiers can only be applied to raising skills to a 'trained' level. Only the skill increases from gaining levels can increase these to expert or beyond. The increases between level 1 and level 7 can be applied to increase skills from trained to expert, those from 7th to 15th can also be used to increase signature skills from expert to master, and those from 15th to 20th can be used to increase from master to legendary.

With the current implementation in HeroLab online, any points from the pool can be used for any skill increase (though bounded by the level and signature skill restriction). However, this can incorrectly lead (for example) to a level 10 rogue being created with more than 3 master level skills.
To be clear this is way HL has always worked. If you want to build a high level character you must start at level 1. Finish all the choices and then proceed to level 2. Once you completed all valid choices at level 2 you proceed to level 3 etc...

You CAN NOT just add 10 levels of the character and expect HL to validate for previous levels. This is just the way that HL works both HLC and HLO and its a side-effect of how the HL engine works. It only understands your current character level not previous levels.

As its the way the engine works (and has always worked) I would not expect this to change anytime soon.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
ShadowChemosh is online now   #84 Reply With Quote
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 8th, 2018, 03:59 AM
<<incorrect stuff, post removed>>

Last edited by taqvah; September 12th, 2018 at 05:45 AM. Reason: <<incorrect stuff, post removed>>
taqvah is offline   #85 Reply With Quote
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 8th, 2018, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
You CAN NOT just add 10 levels of the character and expect HL to validate for previous levels. This is just the way that HL works both HLC and HLO and its a side-effect of how the HL engine works. It only understands your current character level not previous levels.

As its the way the engine works (and has always worked) I would not expect this to change anytime soon.
Ah. I misunderstood your comment, sorry. HLC requires you to add each level individually, true. This is a side effect of the fact that each level can potentially be of a different class. But it doesn't require you to fill out all the details at each level before adding the next.

P2 is different - it only cares about your class at level 1 (because multiclassing is accomplished via feats); once you've selected that, you can add or subtract levels to your heart's content.

HLO allows you to do this quite easily via "Starting Level +/- on the level section of the classes tab. And HLO automatically performs all of the validation already. I don't really see how validating skills in the way I mentioned in my post above would be out of the question?
taqvah is offline   #86 Reply With Quote
ShadowChemosh
Senior Member
Volunteer Data File Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chicago, IL (USA)
Posts: 10,400

Old September 8th, 2018, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taqvah View Post
Ah. I misunderstood your comment, sorry. HLC requires you to add each level individually, true. This is a side effect of the fact that each level can potentially be of a different class. But it doesn't require you to fill out all the details at each level before adding the next.

P2 is different - it only cares about your class at level 1 (because multiclassing is accomplished via feats); once you've selected that, you can add or subtract levels to your heart's content.

HLO allows you to do this quite easily via "Starting Level +/- on the level section of the classes tab. And HLO automatically performs all of the validation already. I don't really see how validating skills in the way I mentioned in my post above would be out of the question?
Sorry I am not explaining this very well. Let me try again.

All game systems from Shadowrun to D&D 3.5 that HL supports can only validate effects based on the characters current level only. This is not dependent on a game system as its how the binary HL engine works. It can not understand previous levels. This means no matter which game system you are using you must add one level at a time. Make all choices until the character is valid and then proceed to the next level. This includes PF2, PF1, HLC and HLO all work exactly the same here as the engine has not changed.

Let me try an example from PF1 using HLC. Anyone can quickly go validate this example if they wish. In HLC PF1 add three levels of Wizard to your character. On the Feats tab you are told to take 2 feats. Add the feats "Power Attack" and "Quick Draw" to the character. HL shows you have a valid feats without errors. But this is an invalid character because at level 1 the wizard did not have a BAB of +1 so its impossible to have taken these two feats but HL lets you.

PF2 works no different just because levels are done with a counter instead of by a class. You must do one level at a time if you want a valid character at higher level. You can not just add 5 or 10 or 3 levels and expect HL to validate for previous levels.

Hopefully that helps.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
ShadowChemosh is online now   #87 Reply With Quote
taqvah
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7

Old September 8th, 2018, 07:00 PM
Ah, got ya.

Hmm. HLO also doesn't validate level appropriateness of class feats when you create a high level character…

I guess the skills thing stood out to me because its not intuitively obvious (like the class feat level) what skills you can increase to what state in the TEML structure. Obviously I know way less than you, Shadow, about the way the engine works, but I would have thought it possible to put a fix in... you just need to treat the skill increases in 4 different flavours.

TSkills: Initial Character skills + Int based (can be varied, includes mods from level based attribute increases and items)
ESkills: Skill increases from L2-L6
MSkills: Skill increases from L7-L14
LSkills: Skill increases from L15-L20

Each of the higher ones can be used as substitutes for the lower level ones, if the user wishes. So if I have 3 TSkills and 1 ESkill, I can either have 4 trained, or 3 trained and 1 expert.

I dunno. I'm just theorising. It would make for a stronger product though.
taqvah is offline   #88 Reply With Quote
nightpanda2810
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 121

Old September 11th, 2018, 08:55 AM
Haven't had time lately to keep the OP up to date, hopefully can after this weeks update.
nightpanda2810 is offline   #89 Reply With Quote
Minous
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 550

Old September 14th, 2018, 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taqvah View Post
Ah, got ya.

Hmm. HLO also doesn't validate level appropriateness of class feats when you create a high level character…

I guess the skills thing stood out to me because its not intuitively obvious (like the class feat level) what skills you can increase to what state in the TEML structure. Obviously I know way less than you, Shadow, about the way the engine works, but I would have thought it possible to put a fix in... you just need to treat the skill increases in 4 different flavours.

TSkills: Initial Character skills + Int based (can be varied, includes mods from level based attribute increases and items)
ESkills: Skill increases from L2-L6
MSkills: Skill increases from L7-L14
LSkills: Skill increases from L15-L20

Each of the higher ones can be used as substitutes for the lower level ones, if the user wishes. So if I have 3 TSkills and 1 ESkill, I can either have 4 trained, or 3 trained and 1 expert.

I dunno. I'm just theorising. It would make for a stronger product though.
Primary issue here are the rules for re-training. You can retrain a feat into something else (even if you where unable to originally choose it). I think fighters might even be able to do that automatically every X levels. Thus trying to validate multiple levels at a time just doesn't work. Best practice is to do what HL is currently doing and process the character as it currently stands.
Minous is offline   #90 Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
wolflair.com copyright ©1998-2016 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. View our Privacy Policy here.