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Parody
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Old December 26th, 2015, 11:19 AM
There's a limit of five attached pictures per post, so I had to cut down what I showed. Here's the most vertical view (but I think it's Horizontal) of the loopy picture:

Sample Plot 1 - Fail.png

Another question that comes up for me is what to do with things the PCs can do at any time. Take this Plot:

Sample Plot 2 - Actual.png

I don't want to let it float because floating items get the bold outline that indicate they're the start node. I'd either diagram it in a box (but without the outline shown here):

Sample Plot 2 - Conceptual.png

...or I'd attach it to everywhere appropriate, but you know how that's going to end up:

Sample Plot 2 - Fail.png

So...compromises. :)

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kbs666
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Old December 26th, 2015, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parody View Post
I've had a hard time getting good use out of the Storyboard because it's difficult to usefully represent anything that varies much from a straight line. Let's look at one of my Plots. My apologies for all the graphics.
But that isn't anywhere near what you can do to represent that plot.

The fairground locations are collected in one adventure area or similar overall topic right? So make that one plot point. In the below image I call that "The Fairgrounds" As to the optional time sensitive encounter? There is no reason to branch out from the main plot and not come back.



And storylines do link. I've done it many times, you just give the storyline a name just like any topic. I have no idea why AEIOU is having trouble with that.
Attached Images
File Type: png 2015-12-26.png (91.6 KB, 40 views)
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Parody
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Old December 26th, 2015, 02:07 PM
kbs666, you're describing exactly what I've done, as shown in the first image in my first post.

While each location is its own Topic, for the purposes of the Plot I leave it combined. I would like, however, to have a nice way to put them all in the Plot.

You do come back to the main Plot, but in the exact place where you left it. To recreate it from what you have, unhook Time's Running Out->Lunchtime Presentation and connect Lunchtime Presentation back to The Fairgrounds. (Time's Running Out is last, Lunchtime is a required encounter partway through this section of the Plot.)

What I was mostly trying to show are the differences between how I like to design and diagram my adventures and what the Plot system allows you to do.

Looking back to the Plot you showed us in the first post, I would very much want the main plot (mostly blue boxes, with one green near the bottom) to be in a straight line and the other two clues next to the Plot Points where they are discovered, but I think it works well overall.

The one question I have: as shown, I would assume that the PCs can skip a lot if they make the right deductions with the clues; is that correct? (The metaplot boxes are connected; if the PCs can't go straight from one clue to another I wouldn't connect them. Again, differences in thinking.)


Last edited by Parody; December 26th, 2015 at 02:31 PM.
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AEIOU
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Old December 26th, 2015, 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
And storylines do link. I've done it many times, you just give the storyline a name just like any topic. I have no idea why AEIOU is having trouble with that.
I played around in RW for a few hours today. Older topics do indeed link for me but newer ones don't -- and I'm dealing with the newer ones nowadays. It may be more complex than that but that's the only pattern I can see so far. Very odd. My behaviour is a bug....
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kbs666
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Old December 26th, 2015, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parody View Post
The one question I have: as shown, I would assume that the PCs can skip a lot if they make the right deductions with the clues; is that correct? (The metaplot boxes are connected; if the PCs can't go straight from one clue to another I wouldn't connect them. Again, differences in thinking.)
No. It is two separate plots. In reality it is quite a bit more involved but I trimmed it to be more readable. The clues lead to the side plot that if deciphered leads to the final encounter shown. The PC's are adventuring doing smaller quests while discovering smaller elements of the larger story. Once the player's know certain elements of the bigger story they can start pursuing The metaplot as their main pursuit.

As to your issues with the storyboard, A lot of the problems could be solved if the storyboard allowed bidirectional arrows which would make a lot of the connections neater. Hopefully the storyline and plot system will get some attention eventually. It is a great part of RW but it could use some additions.
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Kendall-DM
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Old December 26th, 2015, 08:27 PM
I've brought the bi-directional arrows up before, back when the storyboard was first introduced to Beta. As I recall, and LWD can correct me if my memory is failing me, but the Plot Mapping is a third party piece that LWD did not themselves develop, nor have the ability to change. It would be a request to the third party vendor to make the change, which I don't see as likely happening.

I stopped using the Plot Mapping because I have very complex and very long term plots where the lines are overlap so much there is just no way to get anything useful out of it. Mind you, that will happen with any mind mapping software if you make the mapping complicated enough. I've since adopted the much simplier, programming approach of single responsibility to my plot diagrams, in that they are encapsulated in smaller subsets of the whole. And I don't use RW for those diagrams, because it doesn't do it well or better than other third party tools. In fact, most mind mapping software wants to 'do the work for you', which is something I really dislike in software. Like some of you have mentioned here, I want to arrange it how I'd like it to look in the end, so that it flows and is easier to follow. Myself? Yeah, I've been using Visio diagrams, easy to set up, but no linking with RW unfortunately .

So yeah, emphatic +1 for bi-directional arrows.

Also, emphatic +1 for being able to arrange the diagram.

Those two things alone would bring me back into the fold on the Plot Mapping.
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AEIOU
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Old December 27th, 2015, 08:46 AM
For a published module, the built-in storyboard works as the scope is limited. But beyond 15-20 items it just stops being as useful and the limitations become glaring. But maybe that's the key -- keep the storyboards small. In the end though, I'd like some way to link several together and see the big picture and flow of a campaign rather than an episode.

I've used it to diagram dungeon location connections with great success. This can really help understand the flow of an adventure.

I've used it to diagram the general plot flow of published modules as they are normally not terribly involved or can be broken down easily into chapters.

I've used it to diagram NPCs and their goals/wants for adventures that are more mystery than on-the-rails. This was harder as I had to limit myself to a tweet-worth of verbiage as I want to see it at-a-glance.
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kbs666
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Old December 27th, 2015, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEIOU View Post
For a published module, the built-in storyboard works as the scope is limited. But beyond 15-20 items it just stops being as useful and the limitations become glaring. But maybe that's the key -- keep the storyboards small. In the end though, I'd like some way to link several together and see the big picture and flow of a campaign rather than an episode.
This is one of the biggest limits. You can put a plot into a plot point in another plot but there is no way to show how the two plots interconnect. If there was a way to model the connections into and out of subplots the visual clutter issue could be mostly resolved.
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Parody
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Old December 27th, 2015, 09:31 AM
Re: Bidirectional Arrows: While I'd prefer them to be combined, two arrows are fine as long as it picked a sane location to put the boxes. Why loop arrows around another box when you could put the two Plot Points next to each other? Many simple to moderately complex Plots would be easy to fix if we could place the boxes ourselves or somehow help the automatic layout engine.

Something else that could be helpful are labeled transitions. For some types of Plots it'd be nice to show the flow by including what triggers a transition. In my example, you do the Lunchtime Presentation after four events or roughly half the real time available for this part of the adventure, which is likely an hour. Attaching the text "4 Events/1 Hour" to the arrow might help the GM who is skimming the Plot to get an overview of the adventure.

4 Events
--------->
or 1 Hour

<---------


I don't know how many folks would use them as it brings more visual clutter potential, but it's a thought.


Last edited by Parody; December 27th, 2015 at 09:35 AM.
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MNBlockHead
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Old December 27th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Wow, great posts. I'm definitely not using the storyboard to its full potential. Rob's post gave some excellent ideas on how to better use them in conjunction with plotline topics and everyone else's posts showed what limitations I may eventually run into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendall-DM View Post
I've been using Visio diagrams, easy to set up, but no linking with RW unfortunately .
What I am thinking of doing for very complex plots is to create them in Blueworks Live, Visio, or Xmind, save to an image and then make a smart map from the image.

That way I could graph out exceptionally complex plots, link the nodes and even the arrows. I can also use different icons, node shapes, colors, and arrow forms. You can use as smart map in a navigation pane just as you can a plot, so I really lose no functionality with this approach.

The only downside is that I have to use a third-party program for it. But I use TP programs to create maps and to manage text snippets, and I could create complex plot lines much quicker in Blueworks or Visio. Unlike calendars and journals, I don't feel as strongly about needing to have this functionality in RW, since it is unlikely that RW's storyboard will ever have the functionality of a professional diagram tool, process mapper, or mind mapper; certainly not in the near future.

I still use the story board for more simple adventures and I use it quite a bit, but other tools would be better for very complex stories that I want mapped out at a fairly granular detail. Making a smart map out of an exported image from a more robust diagramming tool seems like the most elegant solution in these situations.

RW Project: Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition homebrew world
Other Tools: CampaignCartographer, Cityographer, Dungeonographer, Evernote
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