Two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Ambrus

The problem is that, since it's not equipped, the attack and damage bonuses aren't tabulating correctly.

I am not seeing this issue. The values appear to be correct for a Diminutive bat. You are using the Bat Shape to become a Diminutive bat. Not using your Race ability to simply "Gain" a bit attack leaving yourself at size medium.

Originally Posted by Ambrus

The plan is, while in bat form, to attack with two unarmed strikes (as primary attacks with two weapon fighting penalties) along with a bite which becomes a secondary attack (with a -5 to attack and half ability score damage).

Um as stated several times YOU HAVE NO HANDS. How can you attack with something you don't have. As a Diminutive bat you have NO HANDS so you can NOT attack with them. Only your bite attack.

Let me use a picture:
bat.png
No hands!

Originally Posted by Ambrus

Unfortunately HL doesn't present the full list of style feats in their bonus feat list, so I wasn't able to select Snake Fang as my bonus MoMF feat. I submitted a bug report about that. To make up for it I added in an extra feat as an adjustment. Unfortunately, doing so causes an erroneous prerequisites error cause HL sees it as a regular feat selection. *sigh*

Because MoMS does NOT work with an Unchained Monk. Unchained Monks currently have NO working Archetypes because they don't meet the requirements anymore. Sorry!

[AndrewD2]

Also until its fixed, there might be an adjustment specifically for adding a bonus feat to the class list of the selected class ... and if not, Shadow there's an idea for an adjustment for ya ;-)

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by AndrewD2

Also until its fixed, there might be an adjustment specifically for adding a bonus feat to the class list of the selected class ... and if not, Shadow there's an idea for an adjustment for ya ;-)

Oh sure assigning out work now!

Actually it's not a bad idea. I have added to the to-do list.

So is the MoMS also on that list to get converted. Just fixing stuff in UP right now.... The list never ends....

[Ambrus]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

I am not seeing this issue. The values appear to be correct for a Diminutive bat.

it's that it's a secondary attack and should have a -5 to attack and 1/2 ability score to damage.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Um as stated several times YOU HAVE NO HANDS. How can you attack with something you don't have. As a Diminutive bat you have NO HANDS so you can NOT attack with them. Only your bite attack.

Thanks for the biology lesson. But since when are hands necessary for unarmed attacks? "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Because MoMS does NOT work with an Unchained Monk. Unchained Monks currently have NO working Archetypes because they don't meet the requirements anymore. Sorry!

You just said yourself that converting it wouldn't be hard since a lot about it already lines up, and there already is a 3P version. The only issue seems to be within HL while trying to use their existing version of the archetype. I'm looking for a way to fix it as you seem intent on doing.

[ShadowChemosh]

Sorry if my posts where coming across as bad or mean. It was NOT my intent in anyway.

Originally Posted by Ambrus

it's that it's a secondary attack and should have a -5 to attack and 1/2 ability score to damage.

When in bat form you only have a Bite so it can't be secondary by the rules (hence why HL is not making it secondary). That is standard Bestiary rules. Monsters use natural attacks not unarmed strikes.

Originally Posted by Ambrus

Thanks for the biology lesson. But since when are hands necessary for unarmed attacks? "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."

First I was trying to be funny and cute not mean. I know that comes across as bad in the forums. But I thought it was funny.

This would be rule argument with your DM. Because as a MoMS you have NO FoB meaning you must use Unarmed Strikes (ie Fists) to make attacks. HL is following those rules to the letter (ie only with Flurry of Blows can you make Unarmed Strikes with the rest of your body). If you and your DM agree on "house-rules" that is outside of HL.

But without Flurry of Blows you need "hands" to do your unarmed strikes. I am just trying to explain why HL is doing what it is doing. Anything else would get into the area of making house-rules which you can do with special scripts in HL.

If with all this you disagree on I have no horse in the race I am just trying to explain "why" HL is doing what it is doing. To change it you would need to find an official FAQ or cause one to happen on the paizo Boards. Then you could get LW to change HL scripts to allow this to work.

Or simply feel free to put in a BUG report and talk to LW directly about the issue. Even if I agreed I couldn't change the CORE software.

Originally Posted by Ambrus

You just said yourself that converting it wouldn't be hard since a lot about it already lines up, and there already is a 3P version. The only issue seems to be within HL while trying to use their existing version of the archetype. I'm looking for a way to fix it as you seem intent on doing.

Correct. But until scripted/created the archetype does not work with the Unchained Monk currently. I am talking pure programming here NOT pathfinder rules. It would be like adding a paladin archetype and saying it is not changing the Unchained Monk class abilities. HL treats Monk and Unchained Monk as two totally different 'Things' so the Unique ID of class abilities (like Flurry of Blows) don't line up and the scripts don't work.

This is what I mean by not working. As you saw already as the Style feats are not showing up as Bonus feats. Because when the script fires it can't find the 'Monk' class to make the changes to which it does by a Unique ID.

Hopefully that clears stuff up.

[ShadowChemosh]

P.S. For now you can use the adjustment "Natural Attack: Secondary" to force the Bite attack to be a secondary weapon. Just thought of that sense you have the Basic Pack installed.

[Ambrus]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Sorry if my posts where coming across as bad or mean. It was NOT my intent in anyway.

Fair enough. I do appreciate your help, even if it does come with some snark. You spend more time on these boards helping us noobs more than most, so you're allowed some leeway.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

When in bat form you only have a Bite so it can't be secondary by the rules (hence why HL is not making it secondary).

I get that, though natural attacks do become secondary when combined with weapon or unarmed strikes. The rules cover that possibility; it just seems that HL doesn't recognize it as a viable option the same way it doesn't allow two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

This would be rule argument with your DM. Because as a MoMS you have NO FoB meaning you must use Unarmed Strikes (ie Fists) to make attacks. HL is following those rules to the letter (ie only with Flurry of Blows can you make Unarmed Strikes with the rest of your body). If you and your DM agree on "house-rules" that is outside of HL. But without Flurry of Blows you need "hands" to do your unarmed strikes. I am just trying to explain why HL is doing what it is doing. Anything else would get into the area of making house-rules which you can do with special scripts in HL.

The section I quoted earlier isn't from the Flurry of Blows description; it's from the monk's Unarmed Strike description. But it isn't even a monk thing; the general weapon description for unarmed strikes is: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Again, there's no mention or even an implication that hands are required. Now, a GM could decide unarmed strikes without fists is dumb and disallow them in his game, and that would be fine, but THAT would be the house rule.

I'll admit I may be wrong, and I'll apologize if there's some hidden hand-centric clause for unarmed strikes I've missed somewhere, but if there is it'll be news to me. ATM I'm just trying to build my character with the RAW.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

If with all this you disagree on I have no horse in the race I am just trying to explain "why" HL is doing what it is doing.

I get that and I promise I won't hold you accountable for HL's failings. I'm seeing now more and more that they way LW has setup HL is in accordance with their own interpretation of the rules (or perhaps what they perceive to be the RAI) but not necessarily in keeping with the RAW. That seems a shame to me since it limits the product and requires users to apply an increasing number of band-aid adjustments to get it to work.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

HL treats Monk and Unchained Monk as two totally different 'Things' so the Unique ID of class abilities (like Flurry of Blows) don't line up and the scripts don't work.

Yeah, I imagined that's where the problem lay. A new 'thing' was created for the Unchained Monk's FoB. So I'd have to create a copy of the MoMS archetype and switch it over to the new 'thing' designation to get it to recognize what it's supposed to replace. Doable, just more work.

Unfortunately I seem to be putting more time and effort into building this character in HL, logging bug reports, corresponding with LW and troubleshooting than I am in playing the character. I may just switch back to pen & paper; it may not be as elegant and dynamic as HL, but it's certainly easier to put together.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

P.S. For now you can use the adjustment "Natural Attack: Secondary" to force the Bite attack to be a secondary weapon. Just thought of that sense you have the Basic Pack installed.

Yeah, that works to apply a -5 to attacks, but it doesn't change the damage bonus unfortunately; that'd require another adjustment I guess.

Please don't get me wrong; I appreciate your suggestions and the background reasoning you've offered. And I'm not trying to argue the rules with you. I'm just growing disillusioned with a piece of software that's cost me a fair chunk of time and money which I can't yet make use of for this character.

[Portilis]

Originally Posted by Ambrus

I get that, though natural attacks do become secondary when combined with weapon or unarmed strikes. The rules cover that possibility; it just seems that HL doesn't recognize it as a viable option the same way it doesn't allow two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks.

From the Unarmed Strike entry in monk (core & unchained):

"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."

Would to me remove the viability of 2WF from unarmed attacks.

However, a quick internet search shows that there is no definitive agreed definition of the matter, so HL have gone with what RAW says - you can't do off-hand attacks when striking unarmed.

Similarly, to quote the same text:

"A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."

Whilst a bat technically has feet, I would be somewhat dubious about their ability to kick with them...


To be fair though, the bite should be becoming a secondary weapon BAB when unarmed is selected.



[QUOTE]I'm seeing now more and more that they way LW has setup HL is in accordance with their own interpretation of the rules (or perhaps what they perceive to be the RAI) but not necessarily in keeping with the RAW.[\QUOTE]

Actually, most of the time the issue is exactly the opposite. They have to stick so closely to the RAW that some things can't be implemented as desired because the RAW doesn't provide enough information to actually implement it - a lot of the shapechanging has hit this issue, as have cohorts.

In this case, you are playing with a lot of house rules and unclear rules. The 2WF/unarmed debate has been going for years with no clear outcome (though as noted above, RAW does say you can't). Flurry is actually supposed to be the monk equivalent of the ability...

Equally, the unchained classes are not written to be able to take the archetypes - some of them still could, but applying rules written for the non-unchained classes to the unchained versions is very much not RAW, quite the opposite.

Finally, whilst the bite attack does appear to be a bug, it is something of an obscure case - monks who can turn into bats are not exactly common!

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Ambrus

Fair enough. I do appreciate your help, even if it does come with some snark. You spend more time on these boards helping us noobs more than most, so you're allowed some leeway.

I do apologize again as I do have a smart ass attitude in the real world but it comes with a really big smile that helps everyone know I am kidding. That just does not come through over text.

Really unless I use a swear word I am really trying to be funny....

Originally Posted by Ambrus

Yeah, that works to apply a -5 to attacks, but it doesn't change the damage bonus unfortunately; that'd require another adjustment I guess.

So on the character sheet I am looking at in Bat form its +5H 1d2-3. Well you can't half-damage of a penalty so the Str 5 gives the -3 so half of that is still -3. So that is why I am saying it looks right to me.

[ShadowChemosh]

So also FYI I just took a look at the MoMS and yikes that was easy to input as it really didn't require any Pathfinder Rule changes. It will be in this months release of Pathfinder Unchained Pack.