Games Workshop and Army Builder

rob bowes <ro-@wolflair.com> wrote: 
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/armybuilder/?start=527
> This is all news to me (and quite disappointing). I'd appreciate
hearing 
> what reactions other users are encountering in different locations. 
> However, there's no need to clutter up the forum with this
information, so 
> please send them to me directly.
> 
> Thanks, Rob
> 
> P.S. I'd also be interested to hear what happens at the Baltimore
GTs, 
> since I know a number of attendees are Army Builder users. I'm going
to the 
> Seattle GT, and I'd prefer not to be surprised by something like this.
> 
> 
> At 11:46 PM 2/8/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >All GW retail employees who go to Baltimore for standard staff
training are
> >being told this. They are also being told that Rob is in violation of
> >copyright for using known Gamesworkshop graphics and trademarks.
Which seems
> >unfounded to me. Further. They are being told that the use of
armylists
> >created using armybuilder is banned in all GW stores. It will also
be banned
> >at all official GamesWorkshop sponsored functions.
> 
> 
I would have snipped this down a bit, but I wanted to leave it all
there before I made my comment.

I played in a tournemant in St. Catharines (Ont.) this past weekend,
and went out to dinner with the store owner and some of the regulars
afterwards.  Part of the conversation can probably help shed some light
of GW's position on Army Builder (though this is the first that I had
heard they are opposed to it.)

GW has been filing copyright complaints against other miniature
companies for their Orks.  Basically claiming that their Orks are too
close to GW's Orks and thus are infringing on their intellectual
property.  This, despite the fact that Orks are ripped off from
Tolkien.  Space Marines are out of Starship Troopers.  Tyranids are out
of Alien.  High Elves, and thus, Space High Elves are pretty much based
on Tolkien as well.   GW has it blinders on in these situations.  They
are protecting their 'intellectual property', despite the fact that
they have lifted much of it off other people's intellectual property.

What I see happening here is that GW is pretty much thinking that if
you can make Codex or Black Book armies without having bought the Codex
or Black Book, this will be classified as a 'Bad Thing'.  Never mind
the fact that you still have buy the minitures and paints, and that's
where the real money comes from.  Or that, if I can judge from most
gamers I have met, simply having Army Builder will not stop them from
buying the Codex and the box anyway.  Gamers are that way, they like to
own it.  They always will be.   All GW is seeing is an infringement of
copyright (which I don't think actually exists) and a threat to sales
of the published material.

They are continuing a very short-sighted policy.  As if they have not
alienated enough people already with drastic price hikes.  I still buy
the stuff, 'cause I like it, and like any gamer, I am willing to pay
the price to own a cool looking miniture that I can paint up.   GW is
the only game in town right now, (don't start on other wargames, they
either have crappy minitures, or a crappy game, or both).   Thus they
are feeling like they can have their own way on these matters.

My opinion is this.   GW should embrace Army Builder, and Roll Call,
and anything else that helps promote their game.   Cutting the time to
make an army list from an hour and a half (which I used to do having to
add up wargear and upgrades and such) down to maybe fifteen minutes has
been a real boon.  It does nothing but help their product.  If I was
GW, I'd tell retailers to stick a computer in their store with the damn
product running.  If somebody wanted to know what army to buy and what
they needed, sit down with them and build an army with them.   There
you go, you need 55 models, and here is what they are.  Plus you'll
need the Codex for all the special rules that go with them.  Cha-ching,
you've probably just made $500 in sales.

But that kind of attitude will probably not happen until Games Workshop
has some real competition in the marketplace.  Until they do, they will
continue to feel like they can treat their consumer like crap.


Geoff

(By the way, did I mention that a gallon of black paint sold by Citadel
would cost $1900 (Can).  Don't even think about painting your house
with it.)

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Pretty good.

Russ

In a message dated Tue, 15 Feb 2000  1:37:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Geoff Thureson" <gthureson@hotmail.com> writes:

> rob bowes <ro-@wolflair.com> wrote: 
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/armybuilder/?start=527
> > This is all news to me (and quite disappointing). I'd appreciate
> hearing 
> > what reactions other users are encountering in different locations. 
> > However, there's no need to clutter up the forum with this
> information, so 
> > please send them to me directly.
> > 
> > Thanks, Rob
> > 
> > P.S. I'd also be interested to hear what happens at the Baltimore
> GTs, 
> > since I know a number of attendees are Army Builder users. I'm going
> to the 
> > Seattle GT, and I'd prefer not to be surprised by something like this.
> > 
> > 
> > At 11:46 PM 2/8/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > >All GW retail employees who go to Baltimore for standard staff
> training are
> > >being told this. They are also being told that Rob is in violation of
> > >copyright for using known Gamesworkshop graphics and trademarks.
> Which seems
> > >unfounded to me. Further. They are being told that the use of
> armylists
> > >created using armybuilder is banned in all GW stores. It will also
> be banned
> > >at all official GamesWorkshop sponsored functions.
> > 
> > 
> I would have snipped this down a bit, but I wanted to leave it all
> there before I made my comment.
> 
> I played in a tournemant in St. Catharines (Ont.) this past weekend,
> and went out to dinner with the store owner and some of the regulars
> afterwards.  Part of the conversation can probably help shed some light
> of GW's position on Army Builder (though this is the first that I had
> heard they are opposed to it.)
> 
> GW has been filing copyright complaints against other miniature
> companies for their Orks.  Basically claiming that their Orks are too
> close to GW's Orks and thus are infringing on their intellectual
> property.  This, despite the fact that Orks are ripped off from
> Tolkien.  Space Marines are out of Starship Troopers.  Tyranids are out
> of Alien.  High Elves, and thus, Space High Elves are pretty much based
> on Tolkien as well.   GW has it blinders on in these situations.  They
> are protecting their 'intellectual property', despite the fact that
> they have lifted much of it off other people's intellectual property.
> 
> What I see happening here is that GW is pretty much thinking that if
> you can make Codex or Black Book armies without having bought the Codex
> or Black Book, this will be classified as a 'Bad Thing'.  Never mind
> the fact that you still have buy the minitures and paints, and that's
> where the real money comes from.  Or that, if I can judge from most
> gamers I have met, simply having Army Builder will not stop them from
> buying the Codex and the box anyway.  Gamers are that way, they like to
> own it.  They always will be.   All GW is seeing is an infringement of
> copyright (which I don't think actually exists) and a threat to sales
> of the published material.
> 
> They are continuing a very short-sighted policy.  As if they have not
> alienated enough people already with drastic price hikes.  I still buy
> the stuff, 'cause I like it, and like any gamer, I am willing to pay
> the price to own a cool looking miniture that I can paint up.   GW is
> the only game in town right now, (don't start on other wargames, they
> either have crappy minitures, or a crappy game, or both).   Thus they
> are feeling like they can have their own way on these matters.
> 
> My opinion is this.   GW should embrace Army Builder, and Roll Call,
> and anything else that helps promote their game.   Cutting the time to
> make an army list from an hour and a half (which I used to do having to
> add up wargear and upgrades and such) down to maybe fifteen minutes has
> been a real boon.  It does nothing but help their product.  If I was
> GW, I'd tell retailers to stick a computer in their store with the damn
> product running.  If somebody wanted to know what army to buy and what
> they needed, sit down with them and build an army with them.   There
> you go, you need 55 models, and here is what they are.  Plus you'll
> need the Codex for all the special rules that go with them.  Cha-ching,
> you've probably just made $500 in sales.
> 
> But that kind of attitude will probably not happen until Games Workshop
> has some real competition in the marketplace.  Until they do, they will
> continue to feel like they can treat their consumer like crap.
> 
> 
> Geoff
> 
> (By the way, did I mention that a gallon of black paint sold by Citadel
> would cost $1900 (Can).  Don't even think about painting your house
> with it.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Can they really ban it from use at a GT without giving you warning? 
Imagine that you got your hot little army ready to kick some serious
butt after a long flight across the country and spending nearly $500
for plan tickets and a hotel room only to find out that your army list
is not allowed.  That is the ultimate in BS.  I say stick to your guns
and do not let them boss you around.  Tell them that they can either
let you play or reimburse you for your time and money.  Unless, of
course, they warn you ahead of time in an offical flyer or document,
that is.

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