Removing Half-ranks? Can it be done?

[OverBiscuit]

Hello, forum. First post!

I play a house rule that removes half ranks for cross-class skills, but that retains level-dependent rank maximums. Can Hero Lab be modified to treat skills like this?

Thanks for the great software, LWD.

[rob]

> I play a house rule that removes half ranks for cross-class skills, but
> that retains level-dependent rank maximums. Can Hero Lab be modified to
> treat skills like this?

Before I try answering this, I first want to make sure that I'm
understanding what you are actually asking. It sounds like each point you
put into a cross-class skill is treated as a full rank in that skill.
However, cross-class skills impose a maximum limit of half the total
number of ranks. The net result is that you aren't penalized for putting
skill points into cross-class skills, but you are still limited to a lower
maximum than a character with the skill as a class skill. Is this a
correct understanding?

Also, how are things handled for a multi-classed character? If I take a
level of rogue, then a level of fighter, how am I limited when I put skill
points into a rogue skill when I add the fighter level?

I just want to make sure that I accurately understand what you're trying
to do before I try answering the question....

--
Rob Bowes - rob@wolflair.com

[OverBiscuit]

First, I must apologise for the necessary overuse of the word 'class' in this explanation.

Your understanding is correct.

Here's how I set the numerical maxima. I'll define my house rules:

For a class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + number of class levels for which the skill is 'class.'
For a c/class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + 0.5 * number of levels for which skill is 'c/class'
Decimals are rounded down.

So, using the rogue who takes a level of fighter:

Let's use Disable Device. My 1st level rogue may have 3+1 ranks in Disable Device when assigning skill points that come from a rogue level. He maxes this at 1st level.

If he takes a level of fighter, becoming Rog1/Ftr1, then on level-up he is assigning skill points from a fighter level.

Considering Disable Device, his max rank is 3 + 0.5, rounded to 3. Since he already has 4 ranks in this skill, he may not assign any more as a Ftr1.

Even if he advanced to Rog1/Ftr2, his max is 3 + 2*0.5 for 4. He already has 4 ranks, so he still can't enhance Disable Device above the 4 ranks he already has. He needs to be Ftr4 before he can use Ftr skills points to advance Disable Device to rank 5. Of course, if he slips another Rogue level in and adds a point into Disable Device as a Rogue, he necessitates an even higher Ftr level before he can put even 1 point into this skill as a fighter.


This means that it is difficult to advance a cross class skill if you have 'class' ranks in it already from a previous level, but you could put a point or two into a c/class skill that you have no ranks in at all without trouble.

I consider levels as being cumulative when deciding an absolute class or c/class rank maximum. In my example the character needs to be Rog1/Ftr4 to advance Disable Device to rank 5. However, he could also have taken a level of Wizard for Rog1/Ftr3/Wiz1. Disable Device is cross class for wizards too, but his total class level for classes which have Disable Device as a c/class skill is 4. Quoting my rule at the top:

For a class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + number of class levels for which the skill is 'class.'
For a c/class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + 0.5 * number of levels for which skill is 'c/class'.

Convoluted indeed, and almost certainly not foolproof, though I have not seen a player exploit a weakness in this yet. Probably due to them not taking cross-class skills!

[Colen]

OverBiscuit wrote:

> For a class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + number of class levels for
> which the skill is 'class.'
> For a c/class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + 0.5 * number of levels
> for which skill is 'c/class'
> Decimals are rounded down.
>
> So, using the rogue who takes a level of fighter:
>
> Let's use Disable Device. My 1st level rogue may have 3+1 ranks in
> Disable Device when assigning skill points that come from a rogue level.
> He maxes this at 1st level.
>
> If he takes a level of fighter, becoming Rog1/Ftr1, then on level-up he
> is assigning skill points from a fighter level.
>
> Considering Disable Device, his max rank is 3 + 0.5, rounded to 3. Since
> he already has 4 ranks in this skill, he may not assign any more as a Ftr1.
>
> Even if he advanced to Rog1/Ftr2, his max is 3 + 2*0.5 for 4. He already
> has 4 ranks, so he still can't enhance Disable Device above the 4 ranks
> he already has. He needs to be Ftr4 before he can use Ftr skills points
> to advance Disable Device to rank 5. Of course, if he slips another
> Rogue level in and adds a point into Disable Device as a Rogue, he
> necessitates an even higher Ftr level before he can put even 1 point
> into this skill as a fighter.
>
>
> This means that it is difficult to advance a cross class skill if you
> have 'class' ranks in it already from a previous level, but you could
> put a point or two into a c/class skill that you have no ranks in at all
> without trouble.
>
> I consider levels as being cumulative when deciding an absolute class or
> c/class rank maximum. In my example the character needs to be Rog1/Ftr4
> to advance Disable Device to rank 5. However, he could also have taken a
> level of Wizard for Rog1/Ftr3/Wiz1. Disable Device is cross class for
> wizards too, but his total class level for classes which have Disable
> Device as a c/class skill is 4. Quoting my rule at the top:
>
> For a class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + number of class levels for
> which the skill is 'class.'
> For a c/class skill: Max ranks are equal to 3 + 0.5 * number of levels
> for which skill is 'c/class'.
>
> Convoluted indeed, and almost certainly not foolproof, though I have not
> seen a player exploit a weakness in this yet. Probably due to them not
> taking cross-class skills!


I actually like this method better than the standard d20 method. I don't
like feeling that I "waste" my points when I put them into cross-class
skills, so it tends to make for very cookie-cutter characters.

Implementing this as an optional ruleset in Hero Lab would be reasonably
easy, except for one thing: In the standard d20 ruleset, you calculate
the max ranks for a skill as follows:

If the skill is a class skill for any class the character has, it's 3 +
character level. If it's a class skill for no class, it's half that.

It'd be easy to implement a ruleset that didn't take cross-class skills
at half-ranks, but harder to do the full implementation of your rule
(since each skill would need to track the number of class levels and
cross-class levels independently). I'll add this one to the to-do list -
the easy part (taking full points instead of half points in cross-class
skills) should get added soon, and I'll have to see about the other bit.


Hope this helps,


--
Colen McAlister (colen@wolflair.com)
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development
http://www.wolflair.com/

[OverBiscuit]

Much appreciated! Again, thanks for Hero Lab.

[Colen]

OverBiscuit wrote:
>
>
> Much appreciated! Again, thanks for Hero Lab.


Just FYI - this feature didn't make it into the current release of Hero
Lab (we were a little rushed for time, that is to say I was up until 9am
the day of release). I'm definitely targetting this for next week's d20
update, however.


Thanks for your patience!


--
Colen McAlister (colen@wolflair.com)
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development
http://www.wolflair.com/