Future of Army Builder?

> Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there (unless said organizers
> are so anal as to ban non-current models)

Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that GW was going to ban all
non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores). Those were the days.

-Michael


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I remember those days too. Sad thing is they would
actually do that. I'm glad they didn't do it then.
Most of my stuff is archive stuff. I'm not about to
go buy all new just so I could play in an official
tourney.

Thanks,
Jon
--- Michael Nixon <mnixon@telus.net> wrote:

---------------------------------
> Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there
(unless said organizers
> are so anal as to ban non-current models)

Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that GW
was going to ban all
non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores).
Those were the days.

-Michael


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> > Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there (unless said
organizers
> > are so anal as to ban non-current models)
>
> Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that GW was going to ban
all
> non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores). Those were the days.

It wasnt a rumour - it happened to me. GW store manager banned my RT Land
Raider. I complained to 'Head of Retail'. 'Head of Retail' chastised store
manager. Store manager issued an apology. Sweet!!


Jimi



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Jimi,
I applaud you! Don't let the man step on you. I
hate idiot manager and tourney manager people who do
stuff like that. It really angers me, I mean we take
the time to buy their stuff and assemble it and paint
it, then buy all the books and read them cover to
cover many times, learning all of the information and
rules so that we can play games with our friends and
then go to RTTs and GTs, the least they can do is be
supportive and allow all models in an army (that are
GW models, no matter how old they are).

Thanks,
Jon

--- Jimi <jimi@tubman.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

---------------------------------
> > Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there
(unless said
organizers
> > are so anal as to ban non-current models)
>
> Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that
GW was going to ban
all
> non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores).
Those were the days.

It wasnt a rumour - it happened to me. GW store
manager banned my RT Land
Raider. I complained to 'Head of Retail'. 'Head of
Retail' chastised store
manager. Store manager issued an apology. Sweet!!


Jimi



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Yes, that would be the LEAST they could do. I'd much rather they
umbent their tightwad selves a slight bit more and weren't such
nazi's about "must be pure GW", there are some DAMN nice models out
there from other companies such as Reaper and Crocodile. To me, it's
just incredibly hypocritical. I mean, check out the White Dwarf for
what they consider to be the best paint jobs... they're pretty much
ALL CONVERSIONS, aka NOT WHAT GW SELLS.

Noone would go out and buy a CD player that only played CD's created
by, say, Arista Records, right? Arista would be heavily flamed for
even CONSIDERING to push such an item. Why then does everyone accept
that the GW game system can ONLY be played with GW miniatures? It's
NOT like the miniatures are sold as part of the system, it's
completely seperate. I'm rather disgusted that the tournament system
supports such strong-arm tactics, it's not like the MODEL affects the
game statistics and balance.

Anyway, we've drifted heavily off-topic, so I'm going to stop my rant
here and move on. Thanks for listening.

+--Redeemer--

--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Webmaster <webmaster@b...> wrote:
> Jimi,
> I applaud you! Don't let the man step on you. I
> hate idiot manager and tourney manager people who do
> stuff like that. It really angers me, I mean we take
> the time to buy their stuff and assemble it and paint
> it, then buy all the books and read them cover to
> cover many times, learning all of the information and
> rules so that we can play games with our friends and
> then go to RTTs and GTs, the least they can do is be
> supportive and allow all models in an army (that are
> GW models, no matter how old they are).
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
>
> --- Jimi <jimi@t...> wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> > > Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there
> (unless said
> organizers
> > > are so anal as to ban non-current models)
> >
> > Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that
> GW was going to ban
> all
> > non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores).
> Those were the days.
>
> It wasnt a rumour - it happened to me. GW store
> manager banned my RT Land
> Raider. I complained to 'Head of Retail'. 'Head of
> Retail' chastised store
> manager. Store manager issued an apology. Sweet!!
>
>
> Jimi
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.


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Guys,
Hopefully this may answer a few $B!F(Bniggles$B!G(B about GW. Having asked quite
a few managers, and tourney judges, about using non-GW figures the
$B!F(Bstock$B!G(B answer is that if we want to use other models/ figures then it
wouldn$B!G(Bt be a GW Tourney because you$B!G(Bre not using GW figures. The
figures they released are meant to be represented by the stats they
release in White Dwarf and Codex$B!G(Bs/ Army lists. Annoying
yes..expensive..YES (and meant to be for business purposes). If for
arguments sake you had an army made up of $B!F(Bother manufacturers
figures,$B!G(B for as nice as they may be, your opponent wouldn$B!G(Bt have a
clue as to what they are facing. Standardisation of units is another
answer I get. As to the $B!F(Bcd$B!G(B illustration then here$B!G(Bs another$B!D(Bto
take part in most any competition you must have regulation equipment, as
in this case the units/ figures released by GW. Maybe this answers some
questions.

Donnaghan.

-----Original Message-----
From: hida_dragonbane [mailto:ryuteki@msn.com]
Sent: 07 April 2003 00:42
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder?

Yes, that would be the LEAST they could do. I'd much rather they
umbent their tightwad selves a slight bit more and weren't such
nazi's about "must be pure GW", there are some DAMN nice models out
there from other companies such as Reaper and Crocodile. To me, it's
just incredibly hypocritical. I mean, check out the White Dwarf for
what they consider to be the best paint jobs... they're pretty much
ALL CONVERSIONS, aka NOT WHAT GW SELLS.

Noone would go out and buy a CD player that only played CD's created
by, say, Arista Records, right? Arista would be heavily flamed for
even CONSIDERING to push such an item. Why then does everyone accept
that the GW game system can ONLY be played with GW miniatures? It's
NOT like the miniatures are sold as part of the system, it's
completely seperate. I'm rather disgusted that the tournament system
supports such strong-arm tactics, it's not like the MODEL affects the
game statistics and balance.

Anyway, we've drifted heavily off-topic, so I'm going to stop my rant
here and move on. Thanks for listening.

+--Redeemer--

--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Webmaster <webmaster@b...> wrote:
> Jimi,
> I applaud you! Don't let the man step on you. I
> hate idiot manager and tourney manager people who do
> stuff like that. It really angers me, I mean we take
> the time to buy their stuff and assemble it and paint
> it, then buy all the books and read them cover to
> cover many times, learning all of the information and
> rules so that we can play games with our friends and
> then go to RTTs and GTs, the least they can do is be
> supportive and allow all models in an army (that are
> GW models, no matter how old they are).
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
>
> --- Jimi <jimi@t...> wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> > > Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there
> (unless said
> organizers
> > > are so anal as to ban non-current models)
> >
> > Ah, I remember the rumour going around the net that
> GW was going to ban
> all
> > non-current models (tourneys and affiliated stores).
> Those were the days.
>
> It wasnt a rumour - it happened to me. GW store
> manager banned my RT Land
> Raider. I complained to 'Head of Retail'. 'Head of
> Retail' chastised store
> manager. Store manager issued an apology. Sweet!!
>
>
> Jimi
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.





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And if I take an army of GW figures, and convert them to the nines to
the point where they DON'T look like the original figures...
(Especially for units that can have armor upgrades: change the heads,
change the weapons, add some armor, create a new standard...) they
are still legal, and you still have no clue what you are facing. This
is especially true of Chaos figures, which can really look like
almost anything, and heavy conversion is encouraged. If GW had any
sort of reasonable basis in their "you must buy our figs so your
opponent knows what he's facing", they would release figures suitable
for ALL GAME VARIANTS (light armor, heavy armor, no armor, one
weapon, weapon+shield, two weapons...) and converting a model would
be tournament illegal. Since conversion is not only encouraged but
actually required, GW shows themselves to be money-grubbing
parasites, who happen to have a decent game to abuse.

+--Redeemer--


--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Main" <dennis.main@n...>
wrote:
> Guys,
> Hopefully this may answer a few ¡Æniggles¡Ç about GW. Having asked
quite
> a few managers, and tourney judges, about using non-GW figures the
> ¡Æstock¡Ç answer is that if we want to use other models/ figures
then it
> wouldn¡Çt be a GW Tourney because you¡Çre not using GW figures. The
> figures they released are meant to be represented by the stats they
> release in White Dwarf and Codex¡Çs/ Army lists. Annoying
> yes..expensive..YES (and meant to be for business purposes). If for
> arguments sake you had an army made up of ¡Æother manufacturers
> figures,¡Ç for as nice as they may be, your opponent wouldn¡Çt have
a
> clue as to what they are facing. Standardisation of units is another
> answer I get. As to the ¡Æcd¡Ç illustration then here¡Çs another¡Äto
> take part in most any competition you must have regulation
equipment, as
> in this case the units/ figures released by GW. Maybe this answers
some
> questions.
>
> Donnaghan.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hida_dragonbane [mailto:ryuteki@m...]
> Sent: 07 April 2003 00:42
> To: armybuilder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder?
>
> Yes, that would be the LEAST they could do. I'd much rather they
> umbent their tightwad selves a slight bit more and weren't such
> nazi's about "must be pure GW", there are some DAMN nice models out
> there from other companies such as Reaper and Crocodile. To me,
it's
> just incredibly hypocritical. I mean, check out the White Dwarf
for
> what they consider to be the best paint jobs... they're pretty much
> ALL CONVERSIONS, aka NOT WHAT GW SELLS.
>
> Noone would go out and buy a CD player that only played CD's
created
> by, say, Arista Records, right? Arista would be heavily flamed for
> even CONSIDERING to push such an item. Why then does everyone
accept
> that the GW game system can ONLY be played with GW miniatures?
It's
> NOT like the miniatures are sold as part of the system, it's
> completely seperate. I'm rather disgusted that the tournament
system
> supports such strong-arm tactics, it's not like the MODEL affects
the
> game statistics and balance.
>
> Anyway, we've drifted heavily off-topic, so I'm going to stop my
rant
> here and move on. Thanks for listening.
>
> +--Redeemer--
>


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> actually required, GW shows themselves to be money-grubbing
> parasites, who happen to have a decent game to abuse.

Wanting to stay in business is money-grubbing parasites? Maybe you
want them to go to bankrupt but I prefer for them to stay up and
continue the support the game I play.

Similary. Does WoTC allow cards not produced by them in their MTG
tournaments?


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In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tneva82@yahoo.com writes:


> Wanting to stay in business is money-grubbing parasites? Maybe you
> want them to go to bankrupt but I prefer for them to stay up and
> continue the support the game I play.
>

There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business tactics.
GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing the
shareholders. This is why they are money-grubbing parasites.


> Similary. Does WoTC allow cards not produced by them in their MTG
> tournaments?
>

There is quite a difference between CCGs and Miniature wargames. They're
generally sold in the same store but they aren't part of the miniature
wargaming hobby. Not even close.
Lets look at a similiar arguement. Long standing historical wargaming
companies do not produce every type of Sherman out there, but even if they
did, they would not stop you from bring a Sherman made by a different
manufacturer, but same scale.

Or an even more similar arguement: Every VOID tournament I've played in
(which were not run by i-kore, but were supported by them) we've been able to
have substitutions for miniatures, whether because it is OoP or not released
yet or just really expensive. It generally costs you victory points, or you
started out in the losers bracket, but you were allowed to play.

Games Workshop has strived to create a reputation that it doesn't exactly
care for the hobby it is a part of. And thus those of us who really do care
for this hobby lash back. It's not nice, but were all adults here, able to
keep it professional.
Brad


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> In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tneva82@yahoo.com writes:
> > Wanting to stay in business is money-grubbing parasites? Maybe you
> > want them to go to bankrupt but I prefer for them to stay up and
> > continue the support the game I play.
>
> There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business tactics.
> GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing the
> shareholders. This is why they are money-grubbing parasites.

Funny, when I look at GW's shapre price numbers (GAW, UK Stock Exchange, and
I'm a shareholder...), I see 2 straight years of increased share prices,
followed by a year of flat share prices during a time period when most companies
worldwide were seeing dropping prices during recession...

I'd say that the shareholders are plenty happy.

But that aside, if they're such money-grubbing parasites, why do you continue
playing the game?

> > Similary. Does WoTC allow cards not produced by them in their MTG
> > tournaments?
>
> There is quite a difference between CCGs and Miniature wargames. They're
> generally sold in the same store but they aren't part of the miniature
> wargaming hobby. Not even close.

But his comparison is still valid. Nobody says you can't play warhammer with
other folks' stuff on your own (I know plenty of folks who do), but they
prohibit it in *their* tournaments that *they* sponsor (at a loss, I would
point out...)

> Lets look at a similiar arguement. Long standing historical wargaming
> companies do not produce every type of Sherman out there, but even if they
> did, they would not stop you from bring a Sherman made by a different
> manufacturer, but same scale.

And how many of these companies run large-scale tournaments? (Honest question.
I don't know the answer)

> Or an even more similar arguement: Every VOID tournament I've played in
> (which were not run by i-kore, but were supported by them) we've been able to
> have substitutions for miniatures, whether because it is OoP or not released
> yet or just really expensive. It generally costs you victory points, or you
> started out in the losers bracket, but you were allowed to play.

I note that VOID also doesn't have the level of market share that GW does...
And I note you yourself point out that players are penalised for doing it.

> Games Workshop has strived to create a reputation that it doesn't exactly
> care for the hobby it is a part of. And thus those of us who really do care
> for this hobby lash back. It's not nice, but were all adults here, able to
> keep it professional.
> Brad

I disagree. They run ~20-30 tournaments worldwide every year (12 in North
America alone), at which they *lose* money at every one (on occasion they may
make a slight profit if the on-site store does well). They've created a
tournament system in which stores can run games for folks. They've resurrected
several smaller-scale games which were known money-losers because folks wanted
them (blood bowl, necromunda, talisman, etc.). They've revised rules for armies
due to player demand.

Frankly, I've seen players at GT's with non-GW models. In every case, the
player was still allowed to play, but their painting/appearance score was
tanked.

I will admit that GW has made bad decisions in the past. What company doesn't?
There's inherent risk in running a company. But do those bad decisions make
them money-grubbers? I'd say no.

Nonetheless, this discussion has fallen way off-topic...

--
Steve (That's Mr. Bugman to you, lad...)

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