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ErinRigh
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593

Old June 27th, 2017, 09:24 AM
I didn't kickstart RW, I hadn't even heard of it when I came to it. I got HL at the recommendation of someone on the Fantasy Grounds forums. I was so impressed at its functionality over e-tools (which I was stubbornly still using) that I bought 2 copies before realizing I could get a second licence, and went looking for other software by LWD to make my life easier. I downloaded Army Builder for minis games and looked at the promos for Realm Works because 50 dollars American is a big investment for me. I showed the promos to my wife who was just as impressed and bought me a copy for my once around the sun day, back in October. It has been 9 months and my wife complains that I spend all my time updating and tweaking and inputting one of the 15 Realms I have created, and I applied to the Grey Council.

My point is, I didn't back this program, I wish I had known because I'd have been an Alpha Wolf backer, just based on the programs current functionality. I didn't get the program based on what it might do, but rather on what it DOES do. When I got it, it didn't have Import/Export and I only made a couple of realms because I had to input each individually, but I bought it KNOWING it didn't have that function.

If you did back this program on KS, kudos. The program ALREADY does more than anything like it (is there even anything like it?) and is complex enough that unless you are one of the small few on here that REALLY get it, there is probably a TON of functions unused.

However, backing on KS does not ENTITLE you to ANYTHING!

When you back on KS, you are investing in the stock that is Realm Works. If the marketeer fails to deliver on time, the stock value drops. The stock that you invested in is now worth less. If the market crashes (The program flops and LWD pulls the plug), they owe you NOTHING! You took your chances with the market and you didn't get the return you wanted, but you DID get a return.

The fact is, with all the things this program comes with, including (currently) free backup service (I hesitate to use the word cloud), it is worth the money you invested, and if you invested too much money, too bad, live and learn, we all get taken by the market now and again and you still have a GREAT program.

The moral of my story is don't buy promises. If you buy based on speculations, you deserve what you get. You invest based on speculations, and never invest more than you are prepared to lose outright. If you buy, buy it for what it is not what it could be, or I have a few foals I can sell you at very high prices that MIGHT be prize winning race horses someday.

just my 2 cp

BTW, thanks LW Staff I know you are doing your best and are just as frustrated by these delays as we are.

Erin
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BJ
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Old June 27th, 2017, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
Beeing in the same situation as Dervish, I really understand your and the devs need for the content market, BJ. I argued that way more than once.

But, like many others around this forum, I beg to differ on a very important point:



One of your most important assets are we, the users and customers. Sounds strange and slightly presumptous, I know. But the users, especially those lurking around various forums and the FB group, not only pay for your products. We are an important means of promotion also. If we are satisfied, we talk to others about it. If not, well, we do the same. If we can understand your problems and delays, will tell others also.



Yes, we know, and we are gratefull for it, since we all want RW to succeed and get all the features (like custom calendars and individual reveal) we are all excitedly waiting for.
But - speaking as someone with some experience in PR - we need to know it on a different level.
Therefore I have to agree with Merion, the major problem is the communication.
The issue with weekly updating is if we have something we are working on and that goes sideways and we've spoken about it, people will be upset if we can't accomplish it. If we give a date and we miss it people will be upset that we missed it. If we say soon fully 100% believing that it will be soon and soon doesn't come, people will be upset. So the updates don't work any better than keeping silent. All we can really relay at this point is we are working as hard as we can to accomplish everything everyone wants. Releasing a string of paragraphs about some broken code that needs fixed or written before security will work properly or some such isn't all that helpful and just takes away dev time as someone from the dev team has to come and explain it and then likely sink hours into follow up questions about it, all of which delays the release even more.

When we have big news, or even small but important news, you'll absolutely be seeing it! But giving tech updates before the work is finished is just guess work and that doesn't serve anyone well. At this point I can't even envision Gen Con coming and going before we see the content market but I can't guarantee that something won't go sideways on some security issue or a major bug won't crop up. All any of us can do at this point is wait and use the amazing tool that we have already, as it is, to make something fantastic of our own.
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BJ
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Old June 27th, 2017, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambush View Post
One of the most frustrating parts of the world of software development is the cry of all the users saying "give us updates!" As a developer, it doesn't matter how much you communicate, everyone wants more/different/less/other information. Daily updates to anyone not directly involved in a project is a joke, and even sprint updates to those not invested is a waste. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I'm stoked to already have the things that I have from RW, and I'll wait until the rest gets done. I KS'd an awesome project that has made my DM'ing life so much better than it was, and I thank you.
So glad you're enjoying RW, thank you!
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Tharmiones
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Old June 27th, 2017, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinRigh View Post

However, backing on KS does not ENTITLE you to ANYTHING!
I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
Quote:
How Projects Work

Most of our Terms of Use explain your relationship with Kickstarter. This section is different — it explains the relationship between creators and backers of Kickstarter projects, and who’s responsible for what. This is what you’re agreeing to when you create or back a Kickstarter project.
Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project.
If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
So it is quite obvious that I as a back do have the right to request that they do fulfill their part of the contract, which is at foremost that they do deliver the product they offered and as well but not limited to: Honest communication!
That's what LWD has agreed on by doing the KS in the first place.

Yes I do have to accept delays or changes in content or planned behavior BUT I think we KS people have done a good job in keeping our part of the contract by waiting for something four long years AFTER the planned delivery date and accepting that priorities within the project have changed, certain features have been delayed and so on. We have been very true to our part because we are STILL here and not taking legal actions. At least speaking for myself I've never even thought about that anyway.

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates


So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.
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Ambush
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Old June 27th, 2017, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharmiones View Post
I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

***pointless content cut***

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates


So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.
While you are complaining about misinformation, you should stop spreading it. The quote out of context is:

"Backers appreciate regular, insightful, and honest updates. Don’t be hesitant to communicate delays or changes to your original plans — or to just check in. (If backers don’t hear from you for a while, they worry that you may be having trouble doing the work you promised.)"

They are *not* obligated to update you every time they check in code. I would be really interested to know what part of their obligation you don't believe they are upholding?
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ErinRigh
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Old June 27th, 2017, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharmiones View Post
We have been very true to our part because we are STILL here and not taking legal actions. At least speaking for myself I've never even thought about that anyway.

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".

So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.
Well aren't you a special snowflake. I guess you ARE entitled to something according to that. You are entitled to seek legal action if you feel you've been defrauded. So instead of whining that they didn't fulfill their end of the agreement, ask for a refund, sue them, or shut the hell up. You are not entitled to subject the rest of us to your ceaseless (not speaking of you but the general "you") complaining at every chance that they didn't give you your stuff.
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BJ
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Old June 27th, 2017, 02:41 PM
Alright folks, this is heading toward getting out of hand, let's take a deep breath and think before posting. Please play nice and try to be civil to one another or we'll be facing time outs from the playground.
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Bidmaron
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Old June 27th, 2017, 08:18 PM
Hey, BJ, I must respectfully disagree about your update point. The one thing periodic updates will do is give us a sense of progress during the times when the silence is kind of unbearable around here. Just a periodic post of what you accomplished as technical or non-technical as you wish. No promise of where you are going, just a summary of what was done. You should try it; it should garner you a lot more good will. Yes, there will be those who press you for dates and features, but you just state up front that the thread is only progress reports.

Why not give it go?
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Parody
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Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Old June 27th, 2017, 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharmiones View Post
I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
Note that the quoted terms of use were not the ones in effect at the time the Realm Works Kickstarter began and thus do not apply to this particular Kickstarter project. Those are linked at the bottom of the KS Terms of Use page: Kickstarter Terms of Use for projects started before October 18th, 2014.

Regardless, Realm Works has changed many times since the Kickstarter and I doubt it will ever match up perfectly with any individual's perception of what they thought was going to come out of the project. It is what it is, and what remains for KS backers is some content and some amount of cloud service.


Last edited by Parody; June 27th, 2017 at 08:41 PM.
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wurzel
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Old June 28th, 2017, 03:09 PM
In my professional life I saw besides some really good projects also too many projects that failed. Investigation to identify the root cause for failures was always leading to the same result: insufficient or wrong communication.
If there is a technical difficulty, it is not necessarily a problem if you tell your boss/client/customer about it and the way you are going to handle it, with the impact this difficulty is going to have on your project plan and the costs.

I simply can't understand why it is so difficult/impossible for LWD to give short regular updates.
It does not necessarily have to be very detailed on a technical level. Therefore the statements don't have to be written by developers. Something like "we discovered that the current database structure makes it impossible to implement this necessary feature so we will have to redesign the structure and change a lot of code. It will take at least some weeks to finish that." could be discussed at lunchtime with the marketing person who then generates this short update, and the crowd has some eagerly awaited info to keep them quiet for a while longer.


DM: Tol'Uluk - game system independent homebrew world (so far AD&D 2, D&D3.5, Fate, Pathfinder, D&D5)
Tools: RW, CC3+, CD3, DD3, HL
RL: Retired senior IT manager. Now just housewife, grandma and fantasy author.
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