Gestalt - Community Package....

[stargazer_dragon]

I think really the core of it is between do you consider a new lvl of gestalt as a type of multiclass.

Best I can tell it shouldn't be handles as a multiclass as 1 lvl of gestalt is still 1 lvl of gestalt the class feature of gestalt simply allows you to emulate other classes, effectively a multiclass but not fully.

IE fighter bard, at 1 and cleric monk at 2nd is still just a 2nd lvl gestalt, thus you take the saves and BAB gains at first and add to the saves BAB gained at second.

This approach makes programming pretty simple over all (though maybe not in Herolab as there programming code is a bit different)

If you treat each different combo of class in Hero lab as multiclassing then you get really odd math and super high numbers which quickly become a Min maxers wet dream. Over all I think you have to for the sake of mechanics consider all new lvls as a continuation of the gestalt class

Meaning for lvl 2 you add the save bonus for gaining second lvl, thus good saves gain there good save bonus (meaning I messed up in early post lol)

So for simplicity

LVL 1 gestalt gains + 2 1/2 to all good saves and + 1/3 to all poor saves
LV 2+ gestalt gains + 1/2 to all good saves and + 1/3 to all Poor saves

Then just add all of it up round it down and display, next lvl read re round and display. Hardest part is that you need to keep the fractions

BAB is
Fast +1/LV
Medium 3/4 / LV
Slow + 1/2 / LV

[Mystic Lemur]

I agree. Fractional saves and BAB, while maybe not RAW, is the easiest way to handle Gestalt.


Tried this out today with a Gunslinger//Rogue and it worked amazingly well, aside from the already mentioned skill-point issue. Thanks for all the work you've put into this!

[stargazer_dragon]

it's close enough to Raw it's presented on page 73 of unearthed arcana as a optional rule. But really it makes the math more accurate over all.

I mean I guess the same can be done and more then likely by raw can be done by adding up how many lvls of each save are good saves and how many are poor then looking up what save you should get at that lv and adding it all up to get the number. Fractions basically does the same it just shows you the parts of the whole.

Thus a 5th lvl gestalt that gets 3 Lvls of good Fort saves and 2 lvls with poor fort save would get +3 for that save
5 lvls of good 0 of poor would get 4
2 good 3 poor would get +4


Which helps show why there optional rule is the preferred as by raw the way I understand the semi cryptic wording it is actually possible to get better saves with 3 poor 2 good then 3 good 2 poor simply because the 3rd good is a half point and the third poor is where the full point is

As to say Good goes
2.5
3
3.5
4
4.5

and Poor Goes
1/3
2/3
1
1 1/3
1 2/3

Which translates to
LV Good Poor
1 2 0
2 -- --
3 3 1
4 -- --
5 4 --

Thus by Raw every odd good save is good and every 3rd poor save is good.

By optional rule good saves are always better then poor saves thus making there option rule they list in the book the most excepted and preferred method

[ShadowChemosh]

So read everything you guys said. I do appreciate it. It has helped...

Is the following correct base saves?

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard  Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

If so I found a way I think to code this into HL. If not its back to the drawing boards.

[stargazer_dragon]

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

Depends on translation, Gestalt isn't considered multiclassing when it comes to save bonus (from the way I translate the class)

in the case of monk every lvl the saves by all means should be

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3

And I a pretty positive that is by raw, best advancement from all of those lvls is the monk which has good progression on all lvls

Raw states
""Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the
two classes.

Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose
the better progression from the two classes. For example, a
1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw
bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good
Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save
from the wizard class.""

To me this simply means you ignore the actual numbers the class itself might get and you advance based on progression, Good progression is +1/2 per lvl after first, Poor progression is + 1/3 which is to say +1 per 2 and +1 per 3

Thus by Raw Saves would gain +1 per 2 lvls of good save progression after the first and +1 per 3 lvls of poor saves after the first. By option rules you would add the fractions together to possibly gain in between those points.


So in hopes of clerity, the way I read RAW rules is that you ignor the classes themselves and only look at which saves the class have as good and what ones they have as poor.

Then add them up in a fashion similar to
Fort / Reflex / Will
1st Fighter/Monk good / good / good
2nd Monk/Rogue good / good / good
3rd Monk/Rogue good / good / good
4th Monk/Wizard good / good / good
5th Wizard/Sorc Poor / Poor / good
Fort = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 fort
Reflex = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 Reflex
Will = Good 1st + 4 Good poor = 2 + (4/ 2 round down) = +4 Will

Note that the ones with all good or all poor progression is exactly the same as any other class with good or poor progression, the points where some are good porgression and some are bad, those are calculated by number of good + number of bad.

Thus if a class has 10 lvls and 7 lvls of that have good Fort saves and # lvls of that have poor fort saves then you Look at the chart for 7 lvls of Good and add that to chart for 3 lvls of Poor Saves to get the actual total.

This is further backed up by this Raw text
""Each time he gains a new level,
he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies
them to his characteristics.""

You will note that while gestalt class takes the best aspects of each of the two classes, and applies them to the gestalt class. It is still the same gestalt class it just gets to doppelganger the abilities of other classes, choosing the same class more then once stacks in a way that it gets to doppelganger higher aspects of that class. However threw out it all it is still a single gestalt class. Since it is impossible to take the same class more then a single time via multiclassing that further concretes that a 2nd lvl gestalt is Never multiclassed because in order for that to be true it would have to be a gestalt gestalt which breaks the Raw rules that you can't take a class more then once.

In short Gestalt is treated as a single class that has a variable BAB,HD,and Base save Progression. Hell really gestalt CLASS has variable everything but however it is still treated as a single class for all purposes.

Hope this might help clarify the raw and optional rules up a little

[stargazer_dragon]

Just realized I never checked your Math by the fraction option rules so here that bit of info is in case it helps

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2.5 / Ref +2.5 / Will +2.5
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3.5 / Ref +3.5 / Will +3.5
4th Monk/Wizard Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +4
5th Wizard/ Sorcer Fort +4.1/3 / Ref +4.1/3 / Will +4.1/2
6th Rouge / Sorce Fort +4 . 2/3 / Ref +4. 5/6 / Will +5
7th Fighter/ Ranger Fort + 5 . 1/6 / Ref +5 . 1/6 / Will + 5 . 1/3

As you can see the actual class only matters to determain what saves are good and what ones are poor save, weather you add a 5th lvl of fighter or a 1st lvl of fighter at 5th lvl in both cases it is broken down to Good Fort Progression, Fast BAB progression, D10 HD. Take all the Good Progression and Fastest BAB progression and highest HD progression and use that for the lvls progression.

So a class that adds Good Fort and Good Will and a class that adds good Reflex together causes that lvl of gestalt to gain Good all progression

[stargazer_dragon]

I might add that it isn't specific but the first time that a save progresses as Good Save I would add the +2 to it since that is a key part of the good save progression and follows the Add good saves + poor save progression together to equal the total base save bonus

[Dianae]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

So read everything you guys said. I do appreciate it. It has helped...

Is the following correct base saves?

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard  Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

If so I found a way I think to code this into HL. If not its back to the drawing boards.

Disclaimer: the terms in "*" are direct wording from UA.
This is the math and reasoning that I, and others that I have played with, have taken in the past, the one you described as the Delta Rule.

stargazer_dragon's method is a different take on it, which utilizes the "House Rule: Fractional Base Bonuses"

I do not know which variant is the dominant preference for the Pathfinder Populace.
I also do not know how big of a mother bear this is to code, but I imagine it is a large one.
I, personally, would hate to foist my own preferences on others on this matter.

I do not know how difficult it would be to code in the WotC "House Rule".
Is it feasible to have a radio option, or a secondary selection to choose between the Delta Rule vs the Fractional Rule?

And if I have forgotten to say this recently, Thank you, SC, for even getting a beta version of this out for the rest of us to play with.

Edit: on a personal note, I would be very happy to see what you think you have figured out and coded up. I also know that I am just one person.

[stargazer_dragon]

actually Dianae I was listing Both Raw and the WOTC Fraction House rules.

Raw is and I quote

""Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose
the better progression from the two classes.""


So by Raw you look at the progression and add the progressions together. The fraction optional rules makes this a bit more acurate and easy to program however by RAW you still only look at the good or poor progression just like RAW BAB for gestalt looks at the slow, medium, & fast PROGRESSIONS.

There are a ton of different House rules but if we want it by RAW I would say use ether the Core RAW and look only at progressions (slightly harder to code and slightly less accurate) Or we use the book suggested option rule.

But I am not the person actually coding the progressions so really not my choice. Am sure we would all be pleased by whatever the outcome as long as the basic outcome is listed somewhere in the description, after all we can use adjustments to change the saves to whatever the preferred method is for each DM.

Guess I mainly wanted to point out that Fractions are book Optional but Progression is actually the books RAW

Also as for the reason you don't get the LVL 1 Bonus saves for later lvls is simply

""A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains
2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level,
he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies
them to his characteristics.""

Which shows that lvl 2 gestalt is just that lvl 2 it isn't a multiclass eve if you choose 2 completely different classes, it simply means that the gestalt class emulates different classes at lvl 2 then it did at lvl 1.

Now if you Gestalted (fighter rouge) at lvl 1 then took wizard at lvl 2 then you would be a gestalt wizard multiclass Granted this gets complicated as the book does not address this type of issue instead stating that gestalt is the core and suggesting that you don't mix single classes and gestalt classes.

[Dianae]

I apologize. I meant to infer the method of calculation, not that you were only mentioning the fractional variant, merely that that was the method you chose to put forth for your numbers.