Gestalt - Community Package....

[ccndr]

Yea i thought so... My DM is crazy and he likes to makes stuff up... I think the best thing i can do is just make 2 characters in the same profile and just compare them when i level up in one class like adding in the extra skill points / saves and bab.

[dark78660]

I just grabbed the Gestalt today and started making a few Characters that took too much time to do without this, and I did run into a bit of an issue, The feat "Horse Master" that uses your Character level instead of your Cavalier level causes issues with your Animal Companion/Mount. It teats it as a level 60 (for a level 20 Gestalt Character) but has no hit-dice, feats, skills, ect as if it were a 0 level

Thank you so much for the Gestalt data package, I have hated building custom classes and this makes it really simple, thanks for all your hard work!

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by dark78660

I just grabbed the Gestalt today and started making a few Characters that took too much time to do without this, and I did run into a bit of an issue, The feat "Horse Master" that uses your Character level instead of your Cavalier level causes issues with your Animal Companion/Mount. It teats it as a level 60 (for a level 20 Gestalt Character) but has no hit-dice, feats, skills, ect as if it were a 0 level.

Thanks for the bug report. I have added to the Issues List.

Originally Posted by dark78660

Thank you so much for the Gestalt data package, I have hated building custom classes and this makes it really simple, thanks for all your hard work!

LOL After trying to build this I can totally understand building a character past level one would be a nightmare. I do wish the multiclassing "rules" where a bit better laid down.

Glad it is helping out!

[Dianae]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

The basic tool works but it does not deal well with "unusual" exceptions or sometimes Multitasking with Gestalt. Yes I will be getting back to this but not currently as I have too many other projects going on.

Good to hear that this is still on a back burner, instead of just left as too much frustration. I did have two questions though regarding this addon.

1. Is it currently compatible with the new Community Packs project you are working on.

2. Do you plan to fold it into the community packs in either it's current state, or once it has seen enough revisions to warrant a non-beta release?

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Well yea this idea was "never" even thought about as its so strange. Gestalt is meant to be for all levels not just one level.

I have seen instances where a DM has wanted a little extra survivability/versatility at low levels with out throwing the whole game too far out of balance and given only one level of gestalt, or treated it like Mythic Tiers, only allowing the gestalt to be at most 1/2 current level, (luckily that was just a one shot and everyone made the characters with the DM to alleviate number crunching confusion.)

But that was also back when I did everything with paper and pencil and used legal pads and spreadsheets for my characters.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

But I never built it with the idea of only "one" level being gestalt.

To paraphrase a favorite quote of mine: "No idea ever emerges unchanged from it's initial introduction to the tinkering masses."

Thank you for putting up with us tinkering masses.

On further pondering and review of the thread in general, I think I may have found an attack point for some of the issues with v0.6. A common thread (beyond multi classing issues) between the other issues posted, including the one I mentioned have one common thread.

Perceived Character Level(PCL) vs. Actual Character Level(ACL) vs Gestalt Level(GL)
Hero Lab seems to be counting each instance of a level (Gestalt, Class1, Class2, etc) as 1 level each instead of the levels of Gestalt fully subsuming the levels of the other classes. So to define the terms:

PCL = total # of times a level of any type was added into HL
ACL = The level a Character is supposed to be based on xp gained.
GL = Number of levels in the Gestalt Class

Thus any ability that in HL's coding that gets calculated based on Character Level is pulling info based on a Percieved Character Level from the Classes Tab. Going to go a little Mathy here for a moment.

For a fully Gestalted Character:  
     PCL = 3*ACL = 3*GL
     if ACL > 6 then PCL > 20

Here's where Hero Lab really starts to break down when it comes to calculating levels, I think. Since Pathfinder is a 20 level game, there is no code for a character beyond an ACL of 20, but since Gestalt is artificially "adding" levels to a character, it takes the PCL beyond what Hero Lab can process, again, I think.

The Feat which is supposed to reflect the ACL of 20, reporting the PCL of 60, which it has no data for. I would double check the feat at Level 6 (if you can take it that early and see if it "properly reports" a lvl 18 Mount.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Dianae

1. Is it currently compatible with the new Community Packs project you are working on.

Yes it should still load with the new Packs without issues. If you notice something let me know but current tests show it works fine.

Originally Posted by Dianae

2. Do you plan to fold it into the community packs in either it's current state, or once it has seen enough revisions to warrant a non-beta release?

Not sure actually. It will depend on the what the final version looks like outside of beta. I am sort of leaning to no because I can't see as many people needing this actually.

Originally Posted by Dianae

To paraphrase a favorite quote of mine: "No idea ever emerges unchanged from it's initial introduction to the tinkering masses."

Yea no kidding!

Originally Posted by Dianae

Thank you for putting up with us tinkering masses.

No problem and its a interesting situation really. I actually think I have a better way of handling this concept but it will take a bit of time and may totally destroy current characters. Meaning you would need to rebuild an existing character from the ground up. If that is the case I may have a Proof of Concept version that people can install to try out for a bit to see if its worth going down that path..

Originally Posted by Dianae

On further pondering and review of the thread in general, I think I may have found an attack point for some of the issues with v0.6. A common thread (beyond multi classing issues) between the other issues posted, including the one I mentioned have one common thread.

Thanks! This looks like good information but I will need to come back to this a little later actually. Just too many issues for me to focus on this clearly.

[Dianae]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

No problem and its a interesting situation really. I actually think I have a better way of handling this concept but it will take a bit of time and may totally destroy current characters. Meaning you would need to rebuild an existing character from the ground up. If that is the case I may have a Proof of Concept version that people can install to try out for a bit to see if its worth going down that path..

I'd be more than happy to help test it out. Whenever it is ready(PoC version that is).

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Thanks! This looks like good information but I will need to come back to this a little later actually. Just too many issues for me to focus on this clearly.

Not a problem. If you'd like I can try and tinker with other mathy bits to figure out why other aspects are not working as the tinkering masses intended, (and possible mathematical solutions) but I'm not sure if you want me to post my mathy bits here or on github, or where I should post it on github.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Dianae

I'd be more than happy to help test it out. Whenever it is ready(PoC version that is).

Awesome! Will keep that in mind for the future.

Originally Posted by Dianae

Not a problem. If you'd like I can try and tinker with other mathy bits to figure out why other aspects are not working as the tinkering masses intended, (and possible mathematical solutions) but I'm not sure if you want me to post my mathy bits here or on github, or where I should post it on github.

Here would be best actually. GitHub is great for tracking bugs/issues and code but not for design or concept building.

[nullPointer]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

I actually think I have a better way of handling this concept but it will take a bit of time and may totally destroy current characters. Meaning you would need to rebuild an existing character from the ground up. If that is the case I may have a Proof of Concept version that people can install to try out for a bit to see if its worth going down that path..

Considering I'm assuming this could be added to a clone of the PF Core (similarly to how you've mentioned in previous just cloning the PF path to another), I'd be willing to try this on my gestalt members, if there's chance it would resolve the issues relating to counting perceived level vs alt level
I know my roommate would also love to try it (noting the bugs I've identified to you previously w.r.t. Gestalt)

[Dianae]

Warning: Mathy-ness ahead with a hopefully funny narrative as things go along.

It seems that one of the sticky parts to all of this is that HeroLab and the Current Gestalt Build(v0.6) do not seem to see eye to eye when it comes to computations based on character level.

Seeking Actual Character Level(ACL)

I'll be adding another variable set for the theorizing:

C1, C2, ... C?, etc. to signify the multiple classes, in descending amounts, such that C1 >= C2 >= C3, etc.

Given that the previous theory is true, it would follow that

   for ACL = GL
       Set PCL to GL

That would solve most purely level based issues, (stacking different classes, feats that give bonuses based on ACL, BAB caps, etc.)

However we then have to consider the tinkering masses and going beyond the base dual classed gestalt.

   if sum C1..C? = 2*GL then GL=ACL, set GL to PCL

Just like above, this seems to be our answer for solving most of the PCL issues regarding going beyond dual classed Gestalts, as per above.

Now let's throw another tinkerer's monkey wrench into the works. People not gestalting for the full levels of the character.

   if sum C1..C? != 2*GL  and sum C2..C? = GL
          Set ACL to C1
      else ACL = GL

Hey, with this, we have a consistent check that can be balanced out to ACL=C1 or ACL=GL
Alright, with this bit of coding, we now have checks against all of the possible combinations of wild multiclassing or Partial Gestalting, with only minor checks and balances to help keep the code slim... or so we thought.

"But teacher, what if I'm a Multiclass Rogue/Fighter, and my GM says to add gestalt and wants me (or I want) to take a completely different class for the gestalt levels? What if I gestalt Monk/Fighter then take the rest of my non-gestalted levels as Rogue?"

This is the realm of the creative tinkerer. The person who says, I like this rule, but I don't want to use it expressly the way it is presented. The kind of person who causes logical thinkers, rule writers and coders to need to tackle challenges, or bang their heads against hard surfaces. Repeatedly.
***** OKAY to Ignore this passage *****
If only there was another flag that we could use to make things balance out for all, one way to calculate what level a character is supposed to be without having to have convoluted calculations in order to keep things on track mathematically speaking. But wait, there is such a thing! and I shall give unto it a newly named Variable.

XPL Experience Point Level or, the level a character should be given experience earned.

Huzzah! a (hopefully) easy to find point of character information not derived from anything other than itself. It's a parameter that can be set at Character Creation, It's already checked vs for errors. Huzzah, I say again!

If we can extrapolate from HeroLab the set level a character is for checks and balances, then we can use that as our capstone for any feats that check for character level, or any abilities that might check for character level behind the scenes.

Whew. Fun fun done for now. Mathy thinking when meds wear off and sleepiness taking over leads to babble, but I hope this entertained and informed.

***** OKAY to pay attention again. *****

After re-reading my half awake garble,(kept for archival purposes) I think I have a better idea. This equation, which is so simple that I'm smacking my head that I didn't think of it at first, might solve a good chunk of this level confusion.

In all the level confusion above, I kept on using Gestalt Level as a comparison point for trying to have a single equation (or proof chain) that solved for x, with x being ACL, and having my equation get more and more complicated.

Let's go back to my original equation, but instead of a three way equation, let's break it back down to fundamentals and rebuild it as a simple two sided equation that can work for all Gestalt variants.

If we take the Actual Character levels portion of the equation out, we get Equation 2.
If we (temporarily) break down the 3*GL in to it's components of ACL, Gestalt Class Level((GCL)levels of classes added by gestalt process), and GL, we get equation 3.
To resimplify the equation he Gestalt process adds in itself and the aditional class, so GL and GCL will always be the same value, and thus capable of being collaped down to 2*GL.
If we then solve our new equation for ACL, we get our new golden equation.

Visualization of What I just said.
PCL = 3*ACL = 3*GL
     becomes
PCL = 3*GL
     becomes
PCL = ACL + GCL + GL
     becomes
PCL = ACL + 2*GL
     Solve for ACL
ACL = PCL - 2*GL

This is always going to be true, at least with v0.6's incarnation of the Gestalt System, for whatever mashup of mixed up gestalting is done.

[garret]

I've been using this with no real problems for a while now, but I ran into an odd error after the recent few updates to the pathfinder package and the community packages.

lv 18-20 of the gestalt class are now broken. I can't select a class no matter the order they were added, instead it just comes up with a drop-down menu full of all possible dropdown menus, and if you make a choice it pops up with the error:

Attempt to retrieve candidate for tagexpr from non-existant pick "

Its only ever lvls 18-20. Importing a hero from a previous portfolio has the same error, but the saved selections at 18-20 were preserved and still work if you don't change them.