Character Sheets

[Kinnakeeter]

Originally Posted by Nikmal

No one is doing the work for them. They gave us the option for custom character output. It is not the form that you or some others like but it is custom AND what they said they were going to do. It is in the xml or xsl format and with a Tutorial that is pretty straight forward on how to do a custom sheet. They said that they were going to do this in xml and that is precisely what we got.

The average person CAN do it if they go in and do some experimentation it is not that difficult to do. While there is a learning curve it is not much that it can't be overcome.

The cheaper programs have a much larger learning curve just to use the program so please explain how they are better then Hero Labs? Just using a program like PCGen and customizing most of the character crunch in the PCGen is dang near impossible. While XML is not the easiest thing to use it is pretty straight forward and not technically a true programming language. It is not anything near like C++ or vbasic or some such. So if you would like to do custom sheets for right now and with Hero Labs, you can go through the tutorial and acclimate yourself to the xml a little more then you have done in the past or have some patience and wait a little for someone to come out with one of their own that they are willing to share with us.

Be glad this is not PCgen or another "free" character generator as they are still trying to catch up with how far Hero Labs has come AND have as good an interface as Hero Labs too. Not to mention you WILL need to know programming to do any custom input.

Not to mention that PCGen runs like molasses. I agree with the fact that Hero Lab runs much smoother and easier. A few years ago I would have been one of those jumping in to try to learn enough about xml to create a sheet for myself. Now I'll just have to wait for someone to create one I can use because I don't have time.

I'm not upset at all that the custom input requires this. It's far more than Lone Wolf really needs to do. They didn't have to give us that capability. But, frankly, this is a character generator and it would have been nice to have a character output that is not so unwieldy in the first place. For a first or second level character it works fine. Start getting into higher levels (as a skill monkey rogue) and it quickly becomes unusable. (I should not have to search the back page for the second half of my skills. Even if they were on the second page, it would make sense. But the logic of what things get put where sometimes escapes me.)

I've tried making this point three times and this is the last I'll say. I just wanted to be clear that I'm not against the customizable options (far from it), just disappointed that my original pleas (and I even started a post asking for just the same thing) for a better default option never appeared to be heard.

To end on a positive note, I would like to thank Lone Wolf profusely for the ability to print multiple stat blocks at once.

[Kinnakeeter]

After looking over all my complaints of late, I thought it might be a good thing to express my thanks for the things I really like about HeroLab.... which is, um, everything else.

Honestly, I do appreciate how much work is put into your programs and I see how much you enjoy what you do. So, thanks, both for all the effort and for allowing me to express my opinions.

When I first got HeroLab, I snagged a free license being given away on one of the RPG boards (I think it was Ken who was doing this?). I figured if it didn't work the way I wanted, I wouldn't be out anything. But it worked BETTER than I thought it would. Since then, I've bought all the Pathfinder data sets in addition to the d20 set I stuck with. I have to say that the ability to easily customize crunch content really appealed to me. When the tactical console became a feature, it made the program even better. So, in the interests of accentuating the positive, I thank you for a great product.

So, yeah. While I'm not all that happy over the default character sheets, I've made my point and I'll simply use one offered by one of our bright guys who have time to tinker. Thanks for giving us the ability to do that.

[CapeCodRPGER]

Originally Posted by Nikmal

The average person CAN do it if they go in and do some experimentation it is not that difficult to do. While there is a learning curve it is not much that it can't be overcome.

I know i can learn it if I want to. But I have not the desire or the time. bought HL for the convenince of have all the work done for me. I want a program I can enter my info, and I can choose how the character sheet looks.

At no time did Lone Wolf say how complex this custom output would be. I want an easier way to do it without have to take a class in programing.

I feel Lone Wolf mislead the public about this.

[rob]

Originally Posted by CapeCodRPGER

I feel Lone Wolf mislead the public about this.

Please take a look at our State of the Wolf report from back in January. You'll find the link here. Scroll down to the section on Hero Lab. In the fourth paragraph, we talk about V3.7, wherein we specifically say:
"You'll be able to define your own XSLT style sheets to create completely customized output..."

So I have to take exception to your claim that we "mislead [sic] the public". I'm certain that we outlined this approach last year as well, but I don't want to spend the time digging up further evidence when the above ought to more than suffice in establishing that we clearly told everyone what to expect WELL in advance of this release.

It's unfortunate that your personal expectations weren't met by V3.7. However, we did our best to make clear what capabilities would be included, and at no time did we ever mislead anyone about the custom output functionality.

[rob]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeeter

I just wanted to be clear that I'm not against the customizable options (far from it), just disappointed that my original pleas (and I even started a post asking for just the same thing) for a better default option never appeared to be heard.

Your plea was definitely heard and seriously considered. We looked at the time involved to construct a completely new character sheet that closely mirrored the official Pathfinder sheet. Without having the custom sheet output mechanism in place, it would have taken a pretty hefty chunk of time. Even with the custom mechanism, it wasn't going to be quick, and there were lots of things we wanted to include in V3.7, so we put the official character sheet on the "if time allows" list for V3.7.

As often occurs, we ran into some last-minute surprises that took longer than planned. We also identified a handful of last-minute additions that we felt were really important to a large number of users (such as the well-integrated support for third party publishers). We slipped the release date a bit to accommodate these additions, but we absolutely wanted to have V3.7 out prior to PaizoCon. So we ultimately just ran out of time and weren't able to get the official character sheet implemented for V3.7.

Our problem now is that our back is to the wall with respect to GenCon. We want to get the native Mac version out in time for GenCon, plus there's the highly complex Shadowrun data files and a myriad new Pathfinder supplements between now and then. There's also the new Realm Works product we'll be unveiling at GenCon, although that product has a separate team working on it. We have less than two months in which to get all this done, so we unfortunately missed our window of opportunity to implement the official Pathfinder character sheet before GenCon.

If we're wrong about the custom output mechanism and nobody puts something together over the summer, we'll make it a high priority to get this done ourselves after GenCon. Does that sound reasonable?

[Nanan00]

I spent about 3 hours messing with the custom output css/xml file last night and yes it does let you position things in different spots you are still very limited in the outputs as such...

+1 Flaming Longsword 1d8+1 +1d6, 19-20/x2

Red text is missing...

What good are outputs when they neglect to show important things such as how many dice a spell uses at your level or what damage your weapon does?

Magic missile shows as 1d4+1 at level 1 and at level 20, shouldn't this update as you level, it does in heroforge which is just an excel spread sheet.

[Maidhc O Casain]

Originally Posted by rob

If we're wrong about the custom output mechanism and nobody puts something together over the summer, we'll make it a high priority to get this done ourselves after GenCon. Does that sound reasonable?

That sounds very reasonable - thanks, Rob!

[Kinnakeeter]

Originally Posted by rob

Your plea was definitely heard and seriously considered. We looked at the time involved to construct a completely new character sheet that closely mirrored the official Pathfinder sheet. Without having the custom sheet output mechanism in place, it would have taken a pretty hefty chunk of time. Even with the custom mechanism, it wasn't going to be quick, and there were lots of things we wanted to include in V3.7, so we put the official character sheet on the "if time allows" list for V3.7.

As often occurs, we ran into some last-minute surprises that took longer than planned. We also identified a handful of last-minute additions that we felt were really important to a large number of users (such as the well-integrated support for third party publishers). We slipped the release date a bit to accommodate these additions, but we absolutely wanted to have V3.7 out prior to PaizoCon. So we ultimately just ran out of time and weren't able to get the official character sheet implemented for V3.7.

Our problem now is that our back is to the wall with respect to GenCon. We want to get the native Mac version out in time for GenCon, plus there's the highly complex Shadowrun data files and a myriad new Pathfinder supplements between now and then. There's also the new Realm Works product we'll be unveiling at GenCon, although that product has a separate team working on it. We have less than two months in which to get all this done, so we unfortunately missed our window of opportunity to implement the official Pathfinder character sheet before GenCon.

If we're wrong about the custom output mechanism and nobody puts something together over the summer, we'll make it a high priority to get this done ourselves after GenCon. Does that sound reasonable?

You know, you guys are like Paizo. You don't have to give us more than we ask for, but you do. Thanks for the response. I appreciate the explanation even though it wasn't needed. I think you're being more than reasonable. I'd be happy if the current output was simply cleaned up a bit (if you want specifics I'll be happy to supply them if you ever get to that point; however, with all the folks around here who are eager to use their XML skills I doubt you'll need to). Making it similar to Paizo's would be icing on the cake. So, yes, it's more than reasonable.

I'm also very pleased to hear about the MAC version. It will be nice to know that all my friends can finally use this on their favorite machines. And I've been looking forward to RealmWorks since it was first being discussed. So, thanks, and I apologize if it seemed I was being hard on you. Thanks for your help.

[rob]

Originally Posted by Nanan00

I spent about 3 hours messing with the custom output css/xml file last night and yes it does let you position things in different spots you are still very limited in the outputs as such...

Colen just started a separate thread for specific information that everyone wants to see added to the custom output for Pathfinder. Please re-post these items over there, plus any other items that you would like included.

[Nanan00]

Originally Posted by rob

Colen just started a separate thread for specific information that everyone wants to see added to the custom output for Pathfinder. Please re-post these items over there, plus any other items that you would like included.

Will do, thanks.