Steamed over DRM

A few weeks ago I tried out Windows 10 on a new PC build, it was not for me so I reinstalled windows 7. I am met with a DRM wall to get back into the program I have paid a lot of money to have. I put in a ticket to correct the issue on Sunday only to find out that it would take as long as 1-3 business days to fix when I had 16 hours to play a game.

I found out I have a second key so I activate it on my new computer, that went fine for a few days then I get a notice that my computer has changed so I need to reactivate my licence. I had put in for an early licence reassignment so I used that licence on my computer. Today I go to use HL and I greeted with this message again:




What gives? Nothing has changed on my computer either time! DRM is making me question my investment in Hero Lab.

Now I will likely have to wait till Monday to get the service I have paid for. At this point I would have less bullshit if I downloaded a cracked copy. The intent of DRM is to prevent theft but thieves can download a copy from a torrent fairly easy, what DRM actually does it tick off your customers, make your product less friendly & useable and diverts production resources to just maintain the DRM.

Changing the OS is a major change to your computer. That will easily cause a new license reassignment which is allowed every 120 days. The "key" HL uses comes from Windows itself. So if the OS changes a new "Key" gets generated. So will major hardware changes.

Yes LW is a small company and does not work weekends. They will have you up and running again once the work week starts. My advice is don't do major changes to systems/computers when you need that computer for a game.

Don't be upset with a Small Company trying to make sure they get paid for what they do for living. They need to put food on the table and pay for places to live. Be upset with the community of gamer's who "think" its totally fine to steal what is not there's for free. Hell gamers have said "We can buy one copy and share the software with the whole group" right in front of the LW guys at Gen Con. That is how little they think of stealing.

Yes, changing the OS is a major change, I have not changed the OS in weeks. Patching or updating the OS is NOT a change of the OS at all. Point is I did not make ANY change to my OS windows update ran and patched 4 things one of those virus definitions.

The problem with DRM is that it is intended to prevent thieves but that's not who it targets, it strictly targets paying customers. The problem with your example is that they are deadbeats, anyone that is willing to steal this software is not likely to pay for it even if they have no way to get it for free so preventing them from having it has no monetary benefit but costs money to do and in making it a little harder for freeloaders it has been made non-functional for a number of customers.

I have every right to be upset that I can not use something I paid hundreds of dollars for simply because windows update ran.

Patching or updating the OS is NOT a change of the OS at all.

This isn't something you or Lonewolf decides. When an update is ran Windows can alter the System ID. By doing so it is basically seeing it as a new system. This ID is also what Hero Lab relies on for their DRM. So yes a simple update CAN be seen as a change of the OS and is determined by the OS.

anyone that is willing to steal this software is not likely to pay for it even if they have no way to get it for free so preventing them from having it has no monetary benefit

This is a statement based on air there are no numbers that support either way. I know enough people that if they can get it for free they will. If they can't find a way around the DRM and find that they want/need the software will pay for it IF and only IF they can't find another solution to get that particular software for free.

but costs money to do

As for DRM costing money to implement. Depending on the implementation this is actually only a one time investment with only an occasional update for future special circumstances. Meaning that the cost for DRM can be pretty much neglected after the initial setup

PS. instead of bringing this up in 3 topics shall we just make this the only place to do so... bit redundant to place it in several places while it is all one and the same topic

First, let me address your concern about accessing Hero Lab. Unfortunately, we're a small company and cannot have support staff working 24/7. However, I know the support team will begin working on your support ticket (and others) tomorrow. License reassignments are higher priority issues, so it will likely be taken care of by the end of the day tomorrow.

The reason I'm responding to you now on a Sunday is because you're making false assertions about our company in multiple locations on our forums. Instead of replying to each of your claims across these multiple threads, I'll respond to them all here, and copy and paste into each thread.

TheSleeper said:

anyone that is willing to steal this software is not likely to pay for it even if they have no way to get it for free.

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TheSleeper said:

I don’t see any proof that there DRM has increased there profit’s at all.

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Unfortunately, piracy is a big problem in our industry and it has a dramatic impact on the bottom-line and financial viability for virtually any company who offers their products digitally. We experienced piracy ourselves shortly after the company got started. Almost 15 years ago, we found out the DRM we originally used within our Army Builder product had been hacked. Because that hacked version was readily available, it turns out nearly 80% of our user base was using a pirated copy (based on metrics we instituted within the product to determine our exposure). That was 15 years ago, when the world wasn’t as plugged into the internet as it is now, so it’s doubtful that consumer attitudes (i.e. those numbers) have improved over time.

This experience speaks to the general philosophy of many gamers in our industry – if they can get it for free, they will. Once we implemented a new DRM mechanism, our sales tripled, which clearly showed that people wanted the product and were willing to pay for it – but only if they couldn’t get it for free.

TheSleeper said:

Patching or updating the OS is NOT a change of the OS at all.

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We outlined how devices are identified (and how devices could change "identities") on our website: http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=licensing#how_devices_are_identified. As you can see on the website, "Upgrading your current operating system will often change the identity."

TheSleeper said:

Taking a look I find a number of torrents and regular download links the DRM has been unsuccessful as the only people with the un-cracked version are the ones that have paid.

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You're welcome to download any number of those "torrents", but what you'll find is that it's the demo version of Hero Lab and does not actually include any unlocked game system information. That's because our system has been successful in protecting our software for years. If you find an actual working torrent with unlocked content, please point me to it.

TheSleeper said:

One working day is an unreasonable expectation of a company to make there customers wait every time they get an upgrade.

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As upgrading the operating system is one of the reasons a computer may change its "identity", we actually made our users aware that the Windows 10 update may cause a license reactivation. We've even had users contact us in advance of their upgrade to Windows 10 so we could authorize their license for reassignment early.

As for our 1-3 business day response time for support cases, given we have only one full time technical support employee, I'm pretty darn proud that we can set that expectation for our users. Especially when upgrading your operating system is specifically called out as a reason your license may require a reactivation, and we notified our users on our website, on our social media, and in our recent newsletter that the Windows 10 upgrade may require a reactivation.

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Some final thoughts... I've been working with Lone Wolf for over two years now, either handling or overseeing the technical support cases like license reassignments. There has never been a license reassignment case that I could not explain. They're either prompted by someone using their license number on multiple devices, actually moving a license number within the 120 day window, the reasons outlined on our website, or a super fringe case (someone booting from both their computer's hard-drive and an external hard-drive. Based on our user base and the small number of license reassignment we receive during the week, the majority of users are able to use Hero Lab without running into any problems with our licensing system.

TheSleeper said:

DRM is making me question my investment in Hero Lab.

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If you're not happy with our licensing system, you're still within the 60-day return window. Please contact support@wolflair.com, and we would be happy to refund your purchase. In the meantime, our support team will be getting back to you tomorrow about your license reassignment.

liz said:

Once we implemented a new DRM mechanism, our sales tripled, which clearly showed that people wanted the product and were willing to pay for it – but only if they couldn’t get it for free.

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Or it shows that freeloaders are freeloaders and that you make a good product that caught on at a similar time. Of course where the DRM was released at the same time as upgraded features your conclusions are circumspect.

liz said:

You're welcome to download any number of those "torrents", but what you'll find is that it's the demo version of Hero Lab and does not actually include any unlocked game system information. That's because our system has been successful in protecting our software for years. If you find an actual working torrent with unlocked content, please point me to it.

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After seeing me using HL last year a friend of mine downloaded a hacked fully unlocked version from a torrent that he used in front of me the next week.

liz said:

As upgrading the operating system is one of the reasons a computer may change its "identity", we actually made our users aware that the Windows 10 update may cause a license reactivation. We've even had users contact us in advance of their upgrade to Windows 10 so we could authorize their license for reassignment early.

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From that link: “(This does NOT include automatic updates and service packs.)”

It was an automatic update that locked me out Friday evening on windows 7, 4 days after I installed and patched it and then again a few days after that.

liz said:

As for our 1-3 business day response time for support cases, given we have only one full time technical support employee, I'm pretty darn proud that we can set that expectation for our users. Especially when upgrading your operating system is specifically called out as a reason your license may require a reactivation, and we notified our users on our website, on our social media, and in our recent newsletter that the Windows 10 upgrade may require a reactivation.

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Your response time for Hero Lab and Realm Works is rather good that is not nor has it been the issue I have.

Windows 10 is not the issue its a Windows seven (7), “automatic update”/“Windows Update” issue.

A 1-3 day turn around is crazy, It should not take a tech to unlock my account after it is de-authorized by your DRM system. Once installed it should not monitor my hardware any more for changes or if it is then design your program to reset the timer if it de-authorizes a computer, size of the company is not an excuse for badly designed DRM.

liz said:

If you're not happy with our licensing system, you're still within the 60-day return window.

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My 60 days was up in 2013.

TheSleeper said:

Or it shows that freeloaders are freeloaders and that you make a good product that caught on at a similar time. Of course where the DRM was released at the same time as upgraded features your conclusions are circumspect.

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As stated in one of my other posts. What you are saying Liz is doing is the same thing you are doing. You are assuming that those tripled numbers are people that would have bought it even if there wouldn't be DRM in place. I can assure you that isn't the case. I know people that would have not paid for it but used the DRM free version/hacked version.

TheSleeper said:

From that link: “(This does NOT include automatic updates and service packs.)”

It was an automatic update that locked me out Friday evening on windows 7, 4 days after I installed and patched it and then again a few days after that.

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TheSleeper said:

Windows 10 is not the issue its a Windows seven (7), “automatic update”/“Windows Update” issue.

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This I have also addressed already in a different post. Neither you nor Lonewolf decides when the Windows system ID gets updated. Microsoft's operating system does and your system apparently decided that the update warranted the distribution of a new ID (this is very rarely the case with updates). Seeing the ID changed Hero lab needs to be reactivated. This is part of the design of this DRM method and it is a well working one.

Just for a future reference when installing an older version of Windows knowing you have to update I would recommend you to first update Windows entirely before installing software again.

TheSleeper said:

A 1-3 day turn around is crazy, It should not take a tech to unlock my account after it is de-authorized by your DRM system.

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While it would be nice if that wouldn't be needed. It opens the system up to a lot of exploitable behavior. Seeing how rare it normally is for your system ID to update this is a well acceptable manor of doing it.

TheSleeper said:

Once installed it should not monitor my hardware any more for changes or if it is then design your program to reset the timer if it de-authorizes a computer

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The check to see if the system ID changed is something that has to be done every time. This comes into play for example when people try to share by for example HDD moving.

As for the statement where you are talking that it should only be done if your system is de-authorized. It is doing that, Windows saw a need to update the system ID this causes an ID change. Causing Hero Lab (among other software) to see your system as a "new" system and need for authorization.

TheSleeper said:

size of the company is not an excuse for badly designed DRM.

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This is actually a well designed and working DRM. The main reason you are encountering issues at the moment is because of the things you have decided to do and the order in which it was done.

You say your 60 days have been up since 2013. Meaning you have been using Hero Lab for about 1-2 years (depending on when in 2013). So you haven't run into an issue till you choose to try out Windows 10, then go back to windows 7, then the updates.

Windows 10 - needs reassignment
Windows 7 - needs reassignment
Updates - might (on rare occasions) need reassignment if the OS chooses to update the System ID
some hardware changes - depending on the hardware that is changed Windows will assign a new System ID as well

This situation isn't a common scenario it can happen and that is also why Lonewolf allows for early reassignment of licenses.

TheSleeper said:

After seeing me using HL last year a friend of mine downloaded a hacked fully unlocked version from a torrent that he used in front of me the next week.

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This is news to me! I'm incredibly skeptical that he was using a hacked and fully unlocked version, since I've never seen one that actually worked. Lots of attempts, yes, but nothing that was truly unlocked.

If you can provide us a copy of this hacked version, and it turns out to be true that it's fully unlocked, I'll make it worth your while.

TheSleeper said:

My 60 days was up in 2013.

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I apologize, I misread when your account was created.

TheSleeper said:

After seeing me using HL last year a friend of mine downloaded a hacked fully unlocked version from a torrent that he used in front of me the next week.

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rob said:

This is news to me! I'm incredibly skeptical that he was using a hacked and fully unlocked version, since I've never seen one that actually worked. Lots of attempts, yes, but nothing that was truly unlocked.

If you can provide us a copy of this hacked version, and it turns out to be true that it's fully unlocked, I'll make it worth your while.

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I'm going to echo what Rob wrote, as we've never seen a fully unlocked version. If the torrent does exist, please include it in your support ticket.

I will try and contact him, it's been a while.

Togainu said:

As for the statement where you are talking that it should only be done if your system is de-authorized. It is doing that, Windows saw a need to update the system ID this causes an ID change. Causing Hero Lab (among other software) to see your system as a "new" system and need for authorization.

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Your totally misreading what I posted. What I said is that if HL de-authorized itself then it should automatically reset your licence. De-authorized is taking away your licence on that machine so there are no theft concerns.

Togainu said:

This is actually a well designed and working DRM. The main reason you are encountering issues at the moment is because of the things you have decided to do and the order in which it was done.

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A well designed and working DRM would not need someone to regularly undo things it does. Nor would it require me to turn off windows update on Tuesday so I can ensure I have the program up and running to review my character over the weekend for a game Tuesday of the next week.

In one of the links Liz posted this is #2:
Upgrading your current operating system will often change the identity. (This does NOT include automatic updates and service packs.)

So no this is NOT an action I have done that should effect HL.

All this hate to LWD, when who you should hate? is the (I will not enter the words they will get me banned) fellow gamer that actually uses pirated software. Myself I am not friends with thieves, nor will I game with them either.

Our game group has a running rule, legit or find another group. We had some issue with that in the past, but it was simple, all of us decided that we would not tolerate thieves, since we play in each others homes. How can we trust anyone to not steal from us if they steal from others? This has caused people to not join us, but I say it has enriched our gaming environment.

Don't hate LWD for doing what must be done in the face of so many dishonest people, hate those that cause the reality called "DRM".

If there were no thieves, there would not be a reason to protect against them.

TheSleeper said:

Your totally misreading what I posted. What I said is that if HL de-authorized itself then it should automatically reset your licence. De-authorized is taking away your licence on that machine so there are no theft concerns.

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The computer has to determine that "that machine" has not changed (e.g. moving/sharing the hard disk). Is there another way for the computer to determine this?

Farling said:

The computer has to determine that "that machine" has not changed (e.g. moving/sharing the hard disk). Is there another way for the computer to determine this?

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I would guess there are a ton of ways to determine if it has I am talking about what the system does when it finds your system has changed.




Current system:

something changes>HL detects a change > HL de-authorized itself > good luck email a tech that can only work so fast and not Saturdays or Sundays or holidays



What I am suggesting:

something changes>HL detects a change > HL de-authorized itself > HL asks permission to send information about the de-authorized to LWD > You click yes the computer on your license is removed and you get to install right away.



No human intervention same net effect and can only be triggered when the system has removed HL from the system it was authorized on

TheSleeper said:

What I am suggesting:

something changes>HL detects a change > HL de-authorized itself > HL asks permission to send information about the de-authorized to LWD > You click yes the computer on your license is removed and you get to install right away.

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This is only possible when assuming that the system can still identify itself as the old system. Seeing that system ID is gone it means that it can't ID itself anymore as that system. So there is no way to verify that the reset request is coming from a legitimate source.

TheSleeper said:

Current system:

something changes>HL detects a change > HL de-authorized itself > good luck email a tech that can only work so fast and not Saturdays or Sundays or holidays

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That's not entirely true. In fact, it's frequently not true. The vast majority of the time, the user hasn't recently switched operating systems or moved the license number to a new computer. Ergo, the vast majority of the time, the transfer to a new computer happens silently and automatically.

The ONLY time users get inconvenienced is when they've done something significant with the license number in the previous few months. Given that the typical user actually performs an action every 18-24 months that would impact the association between computer and license number, the four-month window makes this situation an infrequent event that most users never encounter, while still taking a big bite out of piracy (via the simple sharing of license numbers).

Obviously, you've been using Hero Lab for two full years now and haven't run into any hiccups with the licensing mechanism until now. It's probable that you've encountered this silent reassignment of your license number at least once during that period.

TheSleeper said:

What I am suggesting:

something changes>HL detects a change > HL de-authorized itself > HL asks permission to send information about the de-authorized to LWD > You click yes the computer on your license is removed and you get to install right away.

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@Togainu pointed out, there is no way to reliably accomplish this on Windows that will work for the typical user. Yes, it would work for a subset of users who are very controlled and disciplined in how they manage their computer. But that subset is a minority, which renders the approach non-viable overall.

We developed this licensing technology over a decade ago, and it works extremely well. Every year, there are a couple of users who take exception to it vociferously because it becomes an issue at an inconvenient moment. However, there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of gamers actively using Hero Lab at their regular gaming sessions every week. So the overall incidence level of problems is comparatively TINY, and users are typically back up and running significantly faster than lots of large companies even provide a coherent (let alone competent) reply.

I'd love to hear a viable proposal for a licensing system that results in well upwards of 99% customer satisfaction while still providing excellent security against hackers. That's what we have today, so any proposal has to yield at least comparable results.

Then there's always that old adage of "If it ain't really broke" to consider...

i had the exact same thing happen when i upgraded two of my machine s to windows 10 and i sent in my request cognizant that it was possibility that the approval could come up to two days after my gaming session.


poor planning,excecution and just plain bad luck on our parts does not constitute an emergency on LWD's part.

I appreciate the response Rob.

It is really nice that the support is based in the USA. On a gaming evening in the UK, one of my players found that his license needed the manual reset thing. He sent an e-mail and got the reset done within an hour!

Yay for our evening being during USA office hours

Farling said:

It is really nice that the support is based in the USA. On a gaming evening in the UK, one of my players found that his license needed the manual reset thing. He sent an e-mail and got the reset done within an hour!

Yay for our evening being during USA office hours

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LOL yeah I guess that would work out really well then!