Mecha Weaponry

This is perhaps a somewhat minor thing, but the way weaponry is laid out for mecha in Mecha and Manga, the items are either easy-to-lose or hard-to-lose devices based on whether they're handheld or mounted. In addition, the mounts apparently need to be bought up as complementary features. It would be nice if the program handled this automagically. ^_^ You know, along with making the features that are powers work like Armor, Stealth Systems, Improved Plating, etc.

Also, one of the archetypes has a mecha which he does not actually own (it's "purchased" by his benefit, essentially his organization allowing him to use it). It would be nice to be able to load/save mecha, vehicles, and minions for characters. Although, in some ways, this goes back to the earlier post about being able to cut/paste (or save/load) power sets.

I definitely want to make the Mecha upgrades "work" - i.e. Armor adding ranks of protection, and so on. I didn't have time to do it before the last release, unfortunately, but it's on the to-do list.

For the weapons, are you suggesting that adding a mecha weapon should automatically add an appropriate device and weapon mount?

Your last point about being able to save/load child heroes is already on our to-do list.

Colen said:

For the weapons, are you suggesting that adding a mecha weapon should automatically add an appropriate device and weapon mount?

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Indeed. The way the book expresses it, there are mounted weapons and there are hand-held weapons, which correspond to easy-to-lose and hard-to-lose devices (I feel like there ought to be just plain weaponry that covers stuff like the beam weapon embedded in the chest which can't be swapped out, but that's probably just covered under Powers). I just figured on bringing it up before you write up a Weaponry tab and then have your players asking why it doesn't use the same terminology as the book.

Colen said:

Your last point about being able to save/load child heroes is already on our to-do list.

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^_^ Cool.

By the by, there are a few other oddities. Like when I took a character with two languages and created a Mecha for her, the Mecha came up with a warning that I could learn an additional language.

Side note: I'm in a discussion with someone on the ATT about the weaponry costs and they referenced the Chapter 1 option of reducing the cost for devices and equipment for TLs lower than the current one and how this may account for some of the cost differences in the Mecha design. I don't know whether this would be an option you would want to include for HeroLab, particularly since the TL of most equipment and items is not well defined.

Personally, I feel that the penalty for higher TLs is all that is needed, that people choosing a lower TL already have their lower cost, but the option is out there and may account for some of the differences between the mecha and the book and the calculated cost.

Duggan said:

Side note: I'm in a discussion with someone on the ATT about the weaponry costs and they referenced the Chapter 1 option of reducing the cost for devices and equipment for TLs lower than the current one and how this may account for some of the cost differences in the Mecha design. I don't know whether this would be an option you would want to include for HeroLab, particularly since the TL of most equipment and items is not well defined.

Personally, I feel that the penalty for higher TLs is all that is needed, that people choosing a lower TL already have their lower cost, but the option is out there and may account for some of the differences between the mecha and the book and the calculated cost.

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On the same vein, since certain systems are Basic or Complementary depending on the TL of the setting, maybe adding a sort of curtain menu to set it and, consequently, activating or deactivating the options accordingly might be a good idea.

Duggan said:

Indeed. The way the book expresses it, there are mounted weapons and there are hand-held weapons, which correspond to easy-to-lose and hard-to-lose devices (I feel like there ought to be just plain weaponry that covers stuff like the beam weapon embedded in the chest which can't be swapped out, but that's probably just covered under Powers). I just figured on bringing it up before you write up a Weaponry tab and then have your players asking why it doesn't use the same terminology as the book.

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When I was building sample mechas to test them, I just used devices to do it - add a device and made the Blast power part of it. I can think about adding another way to do it, but there's already a way that works fine, so it'll be pretty low on the to-do list.

Duggan said:

By the by, there are a few other oddities. Like when I took a character with two languages and created a Mecha for her, the Mecha came up with a warning that I could learn an additional language.

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Thanks, I'll take a look at this.

Woodclaw said:

On the same vein, since certain systems are Basic or Complementary depending on the TL of the setting, maybe adding a sort of curtain menu to set it and, consequently, activating or deactivating the options accordingly might be a good idea.

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The TL stuff you guys mention is a big can of worms. If you want to give a mecha a discount for using a low TL weapon like a giant sword, the best way is probably just to give it the giant sword at full price, then give the hero a few bonus PP to compensate for it.

Colen said:

The TL stuff you guys mention is a big can of worms. If you want to give a mecha a discount for using a low TL weapon like a giant sword, the best way is probably just to give it the giant sword at full price, then give the hero a few bonus PP to compensate for it.

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Or maybe a Custom Drawback called "Lower Tech Level" that is really just a coupon to refund some points? **Quickly ducks. Just trying to help.**

I would like to see all the mecha & manga along with all the warriors & warlocks templates in the program as well.

Ah, therein lies the problem that templates are not really very buildable in the editor. Or rather, you can build them, but you can't apply them. Colen has stated in one of his earlier posts (can't remember exactly where) that this is indeed something that they are working on.

As a side note, Colen, were I to write up the templates as characters in a portfolio, would that help you at all once this does become implementable? Or will the formats be different enough as to make this effort futile?

I wish they would include all the Archetypes so I don't have to sit there and build them. BTW all the new feats & powers from Mecha & Manga and Warriors & Warlocks are not in the system yet, when will they be included, if its there were are the Martial arts powers "Chi Sense, Devestating Blast, Chi Disrupt, etc?"

This is very frustrating as these books have been out for awhile now.

The archetypes and new feats have been written up and submitted. My understanding from speaking with Colen is that the CoC release delayed things. Furthermore, the feats are kind of oddly situated in that Pet and Mecha feats should only applies to Pets and Mechas. Also, the Pet feats are, to not put it too bluntly, messed up. They took two feat, Minions and Sidekicks, and turned them into four feats which require various levels of "this feat must have ranks bought up to X or no effect occurs". Personally, I have no problem with posting the file to the boards, but since it technically contains proprietary information (from Ultimate Power), I don't know if it's kosher to do so or if it might get Wolf Lair into trouble.

I know that Colen and a few of the others are working on this. Just remember that if you count all of Lone Wolf and the volunteers like my self there are still only less than a dozen folks working of all of the system that this software supports.
Duggan if you want to help writing up feats you can send in the stuff to Colen or post on the board for him to add. That's how I do it.

dartnet said:

Duggan if you want to help writing up feats you can send in the stuff to Colen or post on the board for him to add. That's how I do it.

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^_^ I have. That's what I posted above. They are written up and submitted. But the Pet feats and Mecha feats (and, to a lesser degree, the Martial Arts feats) are very particular to certain genres, meaning that they may have to get into some of the more funky settings to allow people to build their characters without one or the other, and the Pet and Mecha feats start blurring the lines in that there are drawbacks that can only apply to the PC, drawbacks that can only apply to the Mecha/Pets, and some both. Lastly, the Pet feats are very oddly set up. Rather than using the existing Minion

Och... and I need to send an update to what I sent before because I realized a number of minor errors when working on a character last night. Minor things like some of the power feats not being set to Unique such that they can be added multiple times, Climbing Kick not drawing extras and feats from Strike (primarily Mighty), and two of the Chi Sense power options still being set to Super Senses instead of Chi Senses. I may have the weapons written up in the same update, although they may be more hindrance than help given most are very minor tweaks to existing weapons that are given exotic names.

Duggan said:

^_^ I have. That's what I posted above. They are written up and submitted. But the Pet feats and Mecha feats (and, to a lesser degree, the Martial Arts feats) are very particular to certain genres, meaning that they may have to get into some of the more funky settings to allow people to build their characters without one or the other, and the Pet and Mecha feats start blurring the lines in that there are drawbacks that can only apply to the PC, drawbacks that can only apply to the Mecha/Pets, and some both. Lastly, the Pet feats are very oddly set up. Rather than using the existing Minion

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Yeah, I actually just registered into the forum to ask about the Pet stuff (since I bought HeroLab+supplements only yesterday) but I have to say I understand what you mean. Pet feats are probably going to be quite a headache to implement.

I'd say we'd really have to add another tab, much like for Mecha, for the pets and the buying of Menagerie/Loyalty/Bad Apple/other weird pet feats for it. Pet Interpose and such other Trainer feats though, could be perfectly normal feats.

Or model Pet by allowing options, making it into basically an almost-power. You buy Pet, which creates a minion entry in the dashboard, and can add options to it, ala Weather Control or Immunity. Said options would be things like Improved Loyalty and stuff... yeah, I think this could work, but I don't know how hard it'd be to implement into the actual program. As said, I'm still pretty new with it - just trying to help.

Drascin said:

Yeah, I actually just registered into the forum to ask about the Pet stuff (since I bought HeroLab+supplements only yesterday) but I have to say I understand what you mean. Pet feats are probably going to be quite a headache to implement.

I'd say we'd really have to add another tab, much like for Mecha, for the pets and the buying of Menagerie/Loyalty/Bad Apple/other weird pet feats for it. Pet Interpose and such other Trainer feats though, could be perfectly normal feats.

Or model Pet by allowing options, making it into basically an almost-power. You buy Pet, which creates a minion entry in the dashboard, and can add options to it, ala Weather Control or Immunity. Said options would be things like Improved Loyalty and stuff... yeah, I think this could work, but I don't know how hard it'd be to implement into the actual program. As said, I'm still pretty new with it - just trying to help.

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That is a very good idea. I think that an extra tab like how they do mecha is the way to go.

Eh, I still feel like most of the Pet confusion could be alleviated by taking the various feats that require "buy up to X ranks where X is your rank in Pets" and just set up Pets to be like Minions or Sidekicks. But yeah, then we get into the various Pet-specific items that should only be buyable if you have Pets (fairly easily to check) or only apply to Pets like the Drawbacks. I don't think it will be too difficult for Colen to put together, but it will take some time.

*bites lip* If I haven't heard back by tomorrow, I'll just post the package as is. Since parts of it depend on UP, people without the additional dataset package shouldn't be able to use it.

Do it. I would love to look at it.

Duggan said:

Ah, therein lies the problem that templates are not really very buildable in the editor. Or rather, you can build them, but you can't apply them. Colen has stated in one of his earlier posts (can't remember exactly where) that this is indeed something that they are working on.

As a side note, Colen, were I to write up the templates as characters in a portfolio, would that help you at all once this does become implementable? Or will the formats be different enough as to make this effort futile?

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Writing them up as characters wouldn't help at all, unfortunately.

One of the two core template problems is that for a template for an elf, for example, I'd want to say "The elf gets Pointy Ears (i.e. the Feature power at 1 rank)". However, if the user wants to customize the template more, they might want to delete that power (but not the rest of the template). Or, they might want to delete the whole template, and get rid of the Pointy Ears automatically.

Right now, Hero Lab can either let you delete things, or not delete them. It can't maintain a kind of "weak association" where you can delete it, but it's also connected to the "parent" template, allowing everything that got chained in to be deleted all at once.

Duggan said:

Eh, I still feel like most of the Pet confusion could be alleviated by taking the various feats that require "buy up to X ranks where X is your rank in Pets" and just set up Pets to be like Minions or Sidekicks. But yeah, then we get into the various Pet-specific items that should only be buyable if you have Pets (fairly easily to check) or only apply to Pets like the Drawbacks. I don't think it will be too difficult for Colen to put together, but it will take some time.

*bites lip* If I haven't heard back by tomorrow, I'll just post the package as is. Since parts of it depend on UP, people without the additional dataset package shouldn't be able to use it.

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Sorry about the delay, guys. I have a pile of stuff in my inbox from Duggan and others that I need to attend to, plus getting Call of Cthulhu ready for launch, the associated stuff we want to get included in Hero Lab 3.6 (currently over 50 enhancements and bug fixes), plus working on additional data packages for other game systems, and then other updates for Mutants & Masterminds too. And that's just one of our products!

Duggan, since you entered the content yourself, if you wanted to post it somewhere for people to download that's fine. Just bear in mind that if you download it, you might need to delete it once I incorporate it into the core data files.