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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Pathfinder 2nd Edition
- Thread starter brewdus
- Start date
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
I would go with yes it will be HLO only. If it turns out different great but it would be hard to imagine the new shining 2.0 game NOT getting built in the new shining HLO software.
I'm worried about the potential negative affect to LWD's bottom line until 2.0 is out. I probably won't be buying any more data packs for HL, except maybe the adventure path packs. Same for RW, AP data packs only more than likely, until 2.0 is out.
I subscribe to the AP, Pawns and PFRPG at Paizo, probably will cancel the PFRPG one.
I subscribe to the AP, Pawns and PFRPG at Paizo, probably will cancel the PFRPG one.
From my cursory reading of the tidbits that they posted yesterday the character generation is going to GREATLY change, which is definitely where HL is going to have a leg-up on PCGen.
I can't say that I like how they are handling the npc's, where it's just kinda "make what you want". I prefer something more structured for all sides.
I can't say that I like how they are handling the npc's, where it's just kinda "make what you want". I prefer something more structured for all sides.
Can we please not bring 2nd edition into HLO. I guarantee I'll use HLO for Pathfinder 2nd Ed. in the same way I did for Starfinder (i.e.,a few times in Beta and then never again). The subscription model is too costly and the functionality isn't there. Most of us NEED the ability to play offline, god forbid I play at any Con, gaming store, or a friends house where internet is not available or temporarily down.
+2 Classic is preferred.
-100 Online is preferred.
How about supporting both HLC and HLO?
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
The issue currently appears to be some underlying logic. I am saying the following only based on what Ian has said publicly about scripting in HLO. Its also based on what the scripting UI I have done for iPads. This is NOT based on any inside information given to me by LW. Just what I have gathered from reading the forums just like anyone could do.
HL currently has to support three different bits of underling logic to support Classic, iPad and HLO. Until those three merge together into a single bit of tech in the background binary I can't see it worth the money for LW to build something three times. It was hard enough for them to do it two times in HLC and iPad (and its pretty minor for iPad). Three times with HLO/HLC/iPad is not going to happen with such a small staff.
The thing everyone needs to ask for or hope to see is that all of Hero Lab core software function the same across all three platforms (or really two HLO & HLC as I expect to see the iPad get sunsetted). If this can be accomplished then the cost of making PF2 for multiple platforms becomes non-existent. Then LW could easily support all platforms for Starfinder, 5e, PF2, PF1 or other games giving the "choice" onto the gamers preference. With idea that HLC would be more limited in its abilities vs the server based options of HLO.
How and where is LW going exactly? I have no inside information and only time will tell which I think includes how well HLO actually does. Same as for anything speak with your wallets and if enough other people agree than the business will change to match.
Now that Paizo has announced a second edition for pathfinder, what does this mean for Hero Lab online for the first edition pathfinder, will it be added to HLO? There is a year and half gap at this point, on when second edition will be released so there is time yet for this to happen. I do not know how much slippage can happen with the release of second edition, but depending on how the playtest goes the release date could potentially be pushed back further, so this could create a bigger gap than a year and half.
Another question is will Lone wolf still support first edition in classic mode and HLO (if released) once second edition is released? My current group is mixed with the news, but for the near future we will be sticking with first edition and it would suck to loose Hero Lab support. I work in IT so I know there end of life for software and hardware. While I know support cannot be indefinite, for first edition, it would be nice to know if there was a sunset provision for first edition on when that would be and what that means. Does the first edition keep working, but if you find an issue with Hero Lab, it will not be fixed. Will the community still be able to work on it? I know Paizo plans on keep the PDF of first around and keep printing the pocket editions in print until demand is no longer there, but what does that mean for companies like Lone Wolf?
I know it take time to plan for these things, so I am not looking for an answer today, Lone Wolf has a year and half to figure it out, but I though the questions should be asked.
I will continue to buy packages for first edition as I need them, but information on what is coming is always a good thing.
Thanks for great software and support!
Another question is will Lone wolf still support first edition in classic mode and HLO (if released) once second edition is released? My current group is mixed with the news, but for the near future we will be sticking with first edition and it would suck to loose Hero Lab support. I work in IT so I know there end of life for software and hardware. While I know support cannot be indefinite, for first edition, it would be nice to know if there was a sunset provision for first edition on when that would be and what that means. Does the first edition keep working, but if you find an issue with Hero Lab, it will not be fixed. Will the community still be able to work on it? I know Paizo plans on keep the PDF of first around and keep printing the pocket editions in print until demand is no longer there, but what does that mean for companies like Lone Wolf?
I know it take time to plan for these things, so I am not looking for an answer today, Lone Wolf has a year and half to figure it out, but I though the questions should be asked.
I will continue to buy packages for first edition as I need them, but information on what is coming is always a good thing.
Thanks for great software and support!
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
I can add that d20 is supported by the community with new fixes and additions to this very day. On the one side they are still working on adding all the classes, feats and spells from 3.5 WotC days.
On the good side all of Pathfinder would be be available in HL and would hopefully for a few years still get regular bug fixes.
We don't have an announcement on PF2 yet, but existing plans are for anything that's already in desktop HL to be supported indefinitely. From a practical perspective, the work needed for bug fixes is fairly small, plus we'd need to do most of the same work anyway for PF1 in HLO.
For a comparison, look at how in desktop HL we have both M&M 2e and M&M 3e, CoC 6e and CoC 7e, and Shadowrun 4e and Shadowrun 5e, and have active support (including occasional bug fixes and even additional content from obscure sources) for those older editions even though the lines are officially "finished".
Unfortunately, I fully expect Lone Wolf to decide to support PF2 in HLO only, at which point I will sadly no longer be a customer of theirs.
The issue currently appears to be some underlying logic. I am saying the following only based on what Ian has said publicly about scripting in HLO. Its also based on what the scripting UI I have done for iPads. This is NOT based on any inside information given to me by LW. Just what I have gathered from reading the forums just like anyone could do.
HL currently has to support three different bits of underling logic to support Classic, iPad and HLO. Until those three merge together into a single bit of tech in the background binary I can't see it worth the money for LW to build something three times. It was hard enough for them to do it two times in HLC and iPad (and its pretty minor for iPad). Three times with HLO/HLC/iPad is not going to happen with such a small staff.
The thing everyone needs to ask for or hope to see is that all of Hero Lab core software function the same across all three platforms (or really two HLO & HLC as I expect to see the iPad get sunsetted). If this can be accomplished then the cost of making PF2 for multiple platforms becomes non-existent. Then LW could easily support all platforms for Starfinder, 5e, PF2, PF1 or other games giving the "choice" onto the gamers preference. With idea that HLC would be more limited in its abilities vs the server based options of HLO.
How and where is LW going exactly? I have no inside information and only time will tell which I think includes how well HLO actually does. Same as for anything speak with your wallets and if enough other people agree than the business will change to match.
Along those lines, I would think that if PF was on HLO, they could then drop iPad logic/support as the iPad could just use the HLO? Although you loose offline unless they change that...
For offline, why not package up an application build that is basically the "server" logic and the UI would just be a "Web view" to that localhost? Then you have one code base? Take the Discord app as an example, it's simply a web application, and the OS install is really just installing a custom Chromium build displaying the web app. (ok, not the exact same thing but...)
All in all, their are ways to solve offline use unless they really have other motives to force users to use web browser/server.
Also, I really don't see myself throwing away a couple hundred dollars of Hero Lab investment and probably won't invest in any more data packages until I know where we are heading (and I'm not putting that all on LW, but I assume they know more than us from Paizon). I would consider paying 35$ for Pathfinder 2.0 IF my current source material came over with it from Pathfinder 1.0. Or a nominal "transfer" fee if those data packages needed changes because of 2.0. (if a book only had some feats and spells in it, and feats and spells still have the same format in 2.0, then I see no reason why I can't use it with 2.0).
I'm going out on an assumption that Pazio does NOT want us to throw away our 1.0 source material and it will be largely compatible (outside of statblocks).
brenthberry
Active member
Exciting Stuff!
I'm excited to see how Lone Wolf supports Pathfinder 2.0!
I just wanted to throw my hat in and say that I would love to see PF2 supported in Hero Lab in whatever form makes the most sense.
Continue the great work guys!
I'm excited to see how Lone Wolf supports Pathfinder 2.0!
I just wanted to throw my hat in and say that I would love to see PF2 supported in Hero Lab in whatever form makes the most sense.
Continue the great work guys!
Right now, I'm reserving judgment on PF2 until after the playtest.
I don't use the desktop version of HL. It's too clunky -- it doesn't support copy/paste from any text field, doesn't allow font size changes (I'm on macOS and I'm used to using Cmd-{+-} to enlarge/reduce font sizes), and just generally feels like it comes from the 1980's. The UI feels like it was designed by someone who failed their usability training classes: clicking text instead of using buttons? Seriously?
The only reason I bought HL was for the iPad app. That's a gorgeous interface! It doesn't have everything that the desktop version has (like equipment sets, or a popup window with gear values) but if HL "sunsets" the iPad version (ShadowChemosh's words, not LW's) then I'll be dropping HL. That would be a shame, but c'est la vie!
I don't use the desktop version of HL. It's too clunky -- it doesn't support copy/paste from any text field, doesn't allow font size changes (I'm on macOS and I'm used to using Cmd-{+-} to enlarge/reduce font sizes), and just generally feels like it comes from the 1980's. The UI feels like it was designed by someone who failed their usability training classes: clicking text instead of using buttons? Seriously?
The only reason I bought HL was for the iPad app. That's a gorgeous interface! It doesn't have everything that the desktop version has (like equipment sets, or a popup window with gear values) but if HL "sunsets" the iPad version (ShadowChemosh's words, not LW's) then I'll be dropping HL. That would be a shame, but c'est la vie!
This is something that would be really cool, and it's something we have thought about, but it does have a big complication... doing it in a truly cross-platform way would require rewriting all our HL engine code in Javascript or something that can compile to Javascript. (And boy, is it weird to realized that Javascript is the closest thing we have to a truly cross-platform language in this day and age...) Given the decade-plus of work that's gone into the existing HL engine, that would be a huge amount of work, so any planning for it is still off on the horizon.
On this general note, if you haven't tried HLO but might ever want to poke at it, you can register for a free demo account on herolab.online. It's Starfinder-only for now, but once we have PF ready there will be a way to link existing licenses to an account without having to repurchase content.
Once HLO supports Pathfinder, and I can transfer my licenses, I'll be all over that.
If existing adventures (PF 1.0) can have their stat blocks converted to (PF 2.0) easily and on the fly, our group will probably migrate.
If it's an entirely new system... not sure. We have almost everything Paizo has published for Pathfinder already and at least a dozen full campaigns to run still.
A big thing, will be whether the 2.0 version supports Path of War/Expanded characters, Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might, as that is what everyone is playing (plus the occasional Ultimate Psionics character) even though Vancian casting is on the table, along with everything else.
If existing adventures (PF 1.0) can have their stat blocks converted to (PF 2.0) easily and on the fly, our group will probably migrate.
If it's an entirely new system... not sure. We have almost everything Paizo has published for Pathfinder already and at least a dozen full campaigns to run still.
A big thing, will be whether the 2.0 version supports Path of War/Expanded characters, Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might, as that is what everyone is playing (plus the occasional Ultimate Psionics character) even though Vancian casting is on the table, along with everything else.
DeltaMasterMind
Well-known member
All this speculation, oh my! From what I read on the Paizo forums it is anyone's guess since they want to make some changes based on what the playtests show as working better than the original model (1.0). The main changes will most likely come from the way we do action economy and other rules. Stat blocks will remain mostly intact and that is from the mouths of the creators themselves. So monster manuals are safe, for the most part. The core rulebook will be where the biggest changes come from in the form of game mechanic changes. Basically I see alot of D&D 5th rules being implemented, but with Pathfinder flavor (i.e. Touch ac and the like).
As for LW's ability to convert the Pathfinder stuff from 1.0 to 2.0 may be a bit tricky if they do change the action economy, but let's be real here just like all the other game systems there will be options for Pathfinder 1.0 and 2.0 just like there are for D&D, Shadowrun, etc etc. The best part I can say for certain is the conversion of material updated to Pathfinder 1.0 will be easy to update to Pathfinder 2.0.
I remember the creators saying that the action economy in their eyes will be "easier, yet still have 3 parts" similar to Standard Move and Swift actions. Hell it may just require a simple renaming update to all the packages and boom you are running 2.0!
As for LW's ability to convert the Pathfinder stuff from 1.0 to 2.0 may be a bit tricky if they do change the action economy, but let's be real here just like all the other game systems there will be options for Pathfinder 1.0 and 2.0 just like there are for D&D, Shadowrun, etc etc. The best part I can say for certain is the conversion of material updated to Pathfinder 1.0 will be easy to update to Pathfinder 2.0.
I remember the creators saying that the action economy in their eyes will be "easier, yet still have 3 parts" similar to Standard Move and Swift actions. Hell it may just require a simple renaming update to all the packages and boom you are running 2.0!
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