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-   -   Gestalt characters supported? (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=7096)

ShadowChemosh July 30th, 2014 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMasterMind (Post 188936)
The way my DM has explained it to me is when Gestalting the first two classes act as one class option vs experience and leveling, meaning if I used my Sorcerer/Warmage gestalt then any other class added is considered multiclassing I.E. Sorcerer/Warmage 1, Cleric 1.
With this in consideration he did rule that at level I needed to choose between the gestalt class option or the cleric to level when I had enough XP to level.

As others have said both the gestalt class leveraging they are on par with it. Essentially treat the gestalted classes as one class.

Pretty much sums up what I found about gestalt. Everyone group uses a houserule to figure things out. Multiple ways to see RAW and each group uses a different method. So for the Pathfinder version of things I put in adjustments for BAB and Base Save Values. This way groups can easily re-adjust the values to what their particular group uses.

DeltaMasterMind July 31st, 2014 08:13 AM

Honestly the only reason I don't use the pathfinder side of Herolab for this is by the fact Warmage isn't available to me. Lone Wolf doesn't do a very good job describing whats available to me when I purchase data packs, thus many purchases I have made already are rather useless to me. If I had better info back then surely I would have chosen better packages for my personal odd creations. Since I don't think the 3.5 books will ever be converted over due to copyrights and etc, etc. This area stands as my only option atm.

Sendric July 31st, 2014 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMasterMind (Post 189019)
Honestly the only reason I don't use the pathfinder side of Herolab for this is by the fact Warmage isn't available to me. Lone Wolf doesn't do a very good job describing whats available to me when I purchase data packs, thus many purchases I have made already are rather useless to me. If I had better info back then surely I would have chosen better packages for my personal odd creations. Since I don't think the 3.5 books will ever be converted over due to copyrights and etc, etc. This area stands as my only option atm.

LW can't add Warmage to its 3.5 set because of licensing issues. That said, you could create the class in the editor for Pathfinder if you wanted to. It's available for 3.5 in the community set, though obviously the whole gestalt support thing is problematic.

RavenX July 31st, 2014 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaMasterMind (Post 189019)
Honestly the only reason I don't use the pathfinder side of Herolab for this is by the fact Warmage isn't available to me. Lone Wolf doesn't do a very good job describing whats available to me when I purchase data packs, thus many purchases I have made already are rather useless to me. If I had better info back then surely I would have chosen better packages for my personal odd creations. Since I don't think the 3.5 books will ever be converted over due to copyrights and etc, etc. This area stands as my only option atm.

LW cannot add/convert classes that are not licensed. Warmage has not been converted to pathfinder officially as a class. Pathfinder releases variant classes as Archetypes, which is likely what Paizo would classify the class as if they did do it. Many of the 3.5 classes were just variants of an existing base class, they just swapped out class features and altered spell lists.

LW also has too many releases from Catalyst Game Labs and Paizo to actually input data for as it is. That is why they rely on the community to deal with it.

Ualaa August 2nd, 2014 10:32 AM

With Gestalt, I've always used the sidebar for 'Fractional BAB' and 'Fractional Saves'.

That is the only way to really keep a Gestalt character in line with a normal character, in terms of their attacks and defenses.

You can then bring in mostly the correct Encounter Level / Challenge Level creatures and have the game run fairly smoothly, with minimal modifications required on your part.
If a monster relies heavily on 'save or nasty effect' abilities, each character is very likely to have all good defenses, meaning either bring in something two levels beyond what you normally would or reduce the CR/EL by two.

In my games, I've found that bringing in +1 EL/CR for 'doesn't rely on attacking a specific save' or +2 EL/CR for 'relies on targeting a specific save', to be a happy fix.
As in, my group is level 4 and I'd like a challenging encounter, that isn't likely to kill anyone if they play smart. Normally I'd throw an EL 6-8 (depending on their overall optimization level) encounter at them, but instead I throw 7-9 or 8-10 (again weighted by their level of optimization).

One simple fix, and the system works for Gestalt characters.



Sure you could go with additive saves, such as:
LV 01 - Fighter 1 | Wizard 1 ........ +2 Fort
LV 02 - Barbarian 1 | Wizard 2 ..... +2 Fort
LV 03 - Cleric 1 | Wizard 3 ........... +2 Fort
Then be a level 3 wizard, with +6 to Fortitude...

If you choose to go with additive saves, rather than fractional saves, that breaks the game system.
An even moderately optimized character is going to be almost immune to any game effect that allows a saving throw.

If I were to let you have an NPC spell caster (for an encounter), who is restricted to spells that allow saving throws... the challenge rating system isn't going to work against 'additive saves' PCs, who will essentially be immune to your effects, especially if they have Rogue2 or Monk2 somewhere in their build for Evasion.



Fractional BAB and Saves accomplishes this.

Full BAB classes (those with +20 BAB at 20th level) gain +1.00 BAB per level.
3/4 BAB classes (those with +15 BAB at 20th level) gain +0.75 BAB per level.
1/2 BAB classes (those with +10 BAB at 20th level) gain +0.50 BAB per level.
Until it's a whole number BAB rounds downwards.
But you take the better value, from your combined two classes, for each level.
So Wizard|Fighter and then Wizard|Barbarian, would take +1.00 (twice) as Fighter and Barbarian are both full BAB classes and therefore the better of the two values (Wizard being a 1/2 BAB class both times).

The fractional saves is a little more complicated.
If either of your (two classes) has a good save, that value begins at 2.00; if neither of your (two classes) has a good save, that value begins at 1/3 (or 0.33).
The Fighter | Wizard would then have:
Fort 2.00 Ref 0.33 Will 2.00

After the first level, you now only add the fractional value.
Going Barbarian | Wizard, you add:
Fort +0.50 Ref +0.33 Will +0.50
Giving you: Fort +2.50 (+2), Ref +0.66 (+0), Will +2.50 (+2).
Which is in line for any single classed level 2 character who received good Fort/Will and poor Ref saves.

You'd have to round 0.99 to 1, because we're actually adding 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3, not 0.33 + 0.33 + 0.33.



It's really up to you (or whoever is running the game), if you (they) want a working mathematical assumption on savings/attacks/ac or if you (they) want to either modify each encounter depending on the defense attacked/save required (sometimes for each PC in the group... if one has stacked FORT to +12 at 6th level, while the others are closer to a normal +1 to +4) or just accept that the values don't work and that your (their) level 12 monster should be worthless, or worth very little (in terms of experience) for a group that has +12 to a saving thrown, when the system anticipates +3 to +5 for the saving throw.

TobyFox2002 August 3rd, 2014 06:03 AM

I don't fractional in my games nor allow them because I don't feel confident in my mathematical ability. (And if I can't, I can't make sure its being added right especially when prestige classes or multi-classing comes into play later in the game.) However, with hero labs doing all the calculations it might be worth considering because it is more accurate.

But the real issue, the real hurdle with making Gestalt classes work in HL is not blending classes. But blending two caster classes.

I don't know about fractional and CR/ECL. I've always gone by the rule of reduce the CR of monsters by 1/3rd in my head and that produces a fairly good match for most things. When it doesn't work, I tweak things while we are playing. But then, my play style is LESS hack and slash and more role-play. If combat is going poorly, and isn't balanced I'm just as likely to turn it into free-form rp combat as I am to pause the game and hit the books for added help.

Some people may not like this, but those I play with don't seem to mind much.

Tal_Akaan October 19th, 2016 09:35 AM

I'm getting the following error when trying to load after importing the gestalt files:

Syntax error in 'eval' script for Thing 'cPUDevaTou" (Eval Script '#1") on line 9 -> Error in right-side expression of assignment

Anyone know what's going on?

Sendric October 19th, 2016 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tal_Akaan (Post 236445)
I'm getting the following error when trying to load after importing the gestalt files:

Syntax error in 'eval' script for Thing 'cPUDevaTou" (Eval Script '#1") on line 9 -> Error in right-side expression of assignment

Anyone know what's going on?

We would need to see the actual script to have an idea of what the problem is.

Also, what gestalt files did you import? Are you sure they aren't for Pathfinder? That thing (cPUDevaTou) doesn't exist in the d20 community set.

ShadowChemosh October 19th, 2016 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sendric (Post 236450)
We would need to see the actual script to have an idea of what the problem is.

Also, what gestalt files did you import? Are you sure they aren't for Pathfinder? That thing (cPUDevaTou) doesn't exist in the d20 community set.

That is from Ultimate Psionics from the Pathfinder Community Pack. So either a) wrong forum or b) he tried to load Pathfinder stuff into d20....


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