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-   -   Did I miss something? (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59261)

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 05:38 PM

Did I miss something?
 
It looks like a whole thread was deleted, and a user account along with it. I see no comment or explanation from the admins as to why. This is uncharacteristic.

I just looked at one of my own threads, and I didn't see a way to delete it, but I may be missing something there, too. So was this an official censure? And if so, why? I just read through the forum rules, and I don't recall seeing anything in that thread that violated the rules. It was of a critical nature, but it also explained why.

I may have missed some comments, though. I don't know. I hope it wasn't deleted just for being critical.

Dakadin October 2nd, 2017 05:42 PM

I was thinking the same thing.

Dhrakken October 2nd, 2017 05:52 PM

There was nothing in there that warranted a full blown deletion. Clearly someone wasn't happy to be called out on missing yet another deadline; it's the only logical explanation.

kbs666 October 2nd, 2017 05:54 PM

Really? Delete that thread because people were venting?

Did you guys really delete someone's account too?

Parody October 2nd, 2017 06:08 PM

Yeah, that seemed a bit extreme. It's their site, though, as noted in the Forum Rules. :(

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbs666 (Post 256791)
Really? Delete that thread because people were venting?

Did you guys really delete someone's account too?

The OP of that thread was meek75, whose account seems to be gone.

alientude October 2nd, 2017 06:10 PM

I really hope this isn't what it looks like. While I'm very disgruntled with Lone Wolf, that kind of action would be very out of character for them.

Parody October 2nd, 2017 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 256793)
The OP of that thread was meek75, whose account seems to be gone.

The meek75 account still seems to be there for me; I found it via the Member Search and the list of members.

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parody (Post 256792)
Yeah, that seemed a bit extreme. It's their site, though, as noted in the Forum Rules. :(

Sure, but their actions also set the tone of the forums. If they're going to be that oppressive with the ban hammer, they should at least say so. Usually, when they do something like this, they explain why. The only "no warning" warning I've seen is if you're being personally insulting.

If this was their doing (which I'm still not certain about), it's not just that they did it. It's that they did it with no warning and with no explanation when apparently no stated rules were broken.

If that's they tone they want to set for these forums, that's seriously disappointing.

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parody (Post 256795)
The meek75 account still seems to be there for me; I found it via the Member Search and the list of members.

Well that's kinda weird. Earlier, it was telling me the user couldn't be found.

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 06:20 PM

And it says he's watching this thread. What happened, meek?

Bidmaron October 2nd, 2017 06:27 PM

Hey, one thing about the current delay though, guys. I remember when Fantasy Grounds was about to release their PF content, it took several weeks for them to get it approved by Paizo. So it could be perfectly reasonable the delay they have right now. Doesn't necessarily explain the silence here, but the delay is very similar to what we saw with the FG PF content.

meek75 October 2nd, 2017 06:36 PM

I'm still here, and I didn't delete anything. I can't imagine who could have deleted but LWD. To delete it with no warning a or explanation is pretty bad in my opinion. Also, is the thread going disappear next? I'm not sure what they accomplish with deleting the thread other than generate more ill-will.

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 06:45 PM

Yeah, unless I see either an explanation or an apology, I won't be paying for the RW cloud services or for HLO.

kbs666 October 2nd, 2017 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 256797)
Well that's kinda weird. Earlier, it was telling me the user couldn't be found.

Told me the same thing.

Toblakai October 2nd, 2017 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 256802)
Yeah, unless I see either an explanation or an apology, I won't be paying for the RW cloud services or for HLO.

Well I suspect you will not be buying HLO or cloud services. That thread served no purpose other than to be divisive and call out LWD. Deleting it was probably a good thing. There are already plenty of other threads that have comments calling out LWD, having a thread dedicated to it is not useful. I suspect this one will go the same way, since again it serves no purpose.

EightBitz October 2nd, 2017 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256816)
Well I suspect you will not be buying HLO or cloud services. That thread served no purpose other than to be divisive and call out LWD. Deleting it was probably a good thing. There are already plenty of other threads that have comments calling out LWD, having a thread dedicated to it is not useful. I suspect this one will go the same way, since again it serves no purpose.

You think it serves no purpose to provide critical feedback?

Galymyr October 3rd, 2017 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meek75 (Post 256801)
I'm still here, and I didn't delete anything. I can't imagine who could have deleted but LWD. To delete it with no warning a or explanation is pretty bad in my opinion. Also, is the thread going disappear next? I'm not sure what they accomplish with deleting the thread other than generate more ill-will.

This is a whole new level of bad... And really reinforces the fact that there are serious issues with communication at LWD. Ignoring your customers after a missed delivery is bad business, censoring them for demanding answers crosses A line that calls into question your corporate integrity. I sure hope there is a reasonable answer to this.

Exmortis October 3rd, 2017 05:02 AM

Don't worry, they will promise an explanation before Christmas.

But..

Four years later we will be still waiting.

MaxSupernova October 3rd, 2017 05:49 AM

I've had comments deleted before without warning, but never a whole thread.

Hats off, Meek75!

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 256817)
You think it serves no purpose to provide critical feedback?

About missing dates? No, no purpose, well I guess it allows the poster to vent.

Dhrakken October 3rd, 2017 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256834)
About missing dates? No, no purpose, well I guess it allows the poster to vent.

Wasn't the true purpose of the "missing" thread to ask for an update on content market? Yes, there was some venting but you can hardly blame anyone at this point.

EightBitz October 3rd, 2017 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256834)
About missing dates? No, no purpose, well I guess it allows the poster to vent.

Well, no matter. They can delete things here if they want, but they can't delete them from Google's cache, and they can't delete our screen shots.

And they're not the only ones who have Facebook and Twitter accounts.

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 256837)
Well, no matter. They can delete things here if they want, but they can't delete them from Google's cache, and they can't delete our screen shots.

And they're not the only ones who have Facebook and Twitter accounts.

I don't think they care about people having pictures or google cache. I have been on many forums and when a thread gets toxic and serves no use the threads get deleted. It's a very common thing in forums.

They are not hiding that they are late, you can find that info everywhere. But a thread dedicated to it is not needed.

EightBitz October 3rd, 2017 07:54 AM

Our opinions differ on this issue.

kbs666 October 3rd, 2017 08:26 AM

I am as big a fan of LWD as there is. But the reality is the CM has been promised since January. Then it was promised again for PaizoCon in May and again for GenCon in August and then again for early September. We've now missed that latest deadline with no news and we all know LWD is heavily involved with HLO which is likely diverting RW resources as that is a much higher profile project (not that I begrudge them wanting to get HLO out the door, Starfinder support is a profit source). I think I speak for a lot of the fans on the forum when I say that some communication from LWD would go a long way towards calming us down. We had this same discussion with Rob and BJ the last time resentment reached this level and I thought they had agreed to improve communication with the community.

Farnaby October 3rd, 2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256838)
I don't think they care about people having pictures or google cache. I have been on many forums and when a thread gets toxic and serves no use the threads get deleted. It's a very common thing in forums.

They are not hiding that they are late, you can find that info everywhere. But a thread dedicated to it is not needed.

Interesting opinion.

I read the thread last night and was interested in how LWD would answer, didn't see a thread deletion coming at all.

What annoys me is your declaration of that thread being toxic.
That wasn't toxic, if anything it was medium to severe disappointment.
No names were called, no-one was verbally or physically threatened.

If anything it was more a wake-up call to LWD that several customers, I'd even go so far as to say loyal customers, are exasperated.
So saying that the thread was of no use is a misconception.

I myself rarely comment on the forums, I'm more of a lurker, but now I'd like to go on record here as saying that I am quite peeved at the lack of reaction we RW customers are getting.

Also I read in a thread in the HeroLab Support forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob: (Post 255533)
Subject: Why did we dive into creating Hero Lab Online while Realm Works was still not complete?

The answer to this one is simple. Hero Lab pays the bills and there was a solid business case for pursuing Hero Lab Online.

The development of Realm Works is subsidized by revenues from Hero Lab. Until that changes, Hero Lab will remain our top priority, and any other pursuit is inherently secondary. For those who have voiced displeasure about our prioritization of the Content Market over other features for Realm Works, that dependency remains a critical factor. Once the Content Market brings in sufficient revenue to make Realm Works entirely self-sufficient, the dynamic between the two products completely changes. That’s why the Content Market has been our focus.

We’ve been talking about Hero Lab Online for a few years now. We even delayed starting work on it due to my desire to focus on Realm Works, much to the chagrin of some around here. However, we reached a point where the business case for Hero Lab Online trumped my desire to complete Realm Works first, so we had to move forward on it. While the Hero Lab and Realm Works teams are substantially distinct, there is some overlap (our server guru and me). Assigning those two resources to Hero Lab Online slowed things down further for Realm Works. It was a tough choice for me, personally, but it was necessary. Thankfully, we’re almost across the finish line on the Realm Works Content Market, and Hero Lab Online is coming together nicely. So we’re in good shape with both products.

This was from 6. September. Now I rarely go into the HeroLab forums, so why wasn't this posted also in the Realmworks forums. The thing is, I understand this, if you need to keep LWD running with HeroLab to fund RW then go for it. But please, please tell us. I, and others, have kept the faith so long, please don't abuse it.

So, having got that off my chest, I hope this will not be declared "toxic" and get deleted. [/s]

MaxSupernova October 3rd, 2017 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbs666 (Post 256840)
But the reality is the CM has been promised since January.

7+ years of development.

4 1/2 years since the Kickstarter.

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farnaby (Post 256841)
Interesting opinion.
I read the thread last night and was interested in how LWD would answer, didn't see a thread deletion coming at all.

What annoys me is your declaration of that thread being toxic.
That wasn't toxic, if anything it was medium to severe disappointment.
No names were called, no-one was verbally or physically threatened.

Well compared to a lot of other forums, nothing on here is toxic. But as far as threads on an LWD forum, it was on the higher end of toxic. A lot of forums would just close the thread, they probably should have done that instead.

Dark Lord Galen October 3rd, 2017 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256843)
Well compared to a lot of other forums, nothing on here is toxic.

True

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256843)
But as far as threads on an LWD forum, it was on the higher end of toxic.

Not True, and sorry your 140 or so posts and a user since 2016 hardly qualifies you to make such an assumption as to "higher end" here. When long time users even begin to voice their dissatisfaction, LWD should take notice. These are the people that their business lifeblood depends on. Not to imply new users don't or shouldn't have a voice, they should, but not all voices carry the same weight. The survey should have taught LWD that lesson. (whole other topic there)

Farnaby, Max, and Many others have rightly pointed to facts, not opinions. If LWD (or anyone else for that matter) finds them harsh, well sorry, sometimes the truth is just that, unvarnished , no malice directed, black and white harsh.

And like Farnaby, I have downscaled my participation on the forums since Liz's departure. Not as any refection on BJ (spoke with her at Gencon on this very issue as a matter of fact), but on the lack of communication by LWD and the perception of some that we "have beat the horse to death".

Well, yes, the horse certainly has taken its lashes, why? Could it be because the problem is still unsolved? And no amount of pretending that it has been solved will help. Denial phrases of "just moving on" nor unfulfilled promises of "soon" are curing it. Pretending a problem doesn't exist doesn't make the problem go away.

Even with the hope that it solves itself. the end product users of ANY product have a right to reasonable expectations. KEY word here is "reasonable" and it is poorly defined on both sides. Is it reasonable to expect "future plans" to be fulfilled already? OR is it more reasonable to expect items that were already agreed to? Shown, Displayed, earmarked for priority? Each of us may certainly answer differently....

The bottom line is something that is pretty much accepted wisdom here in Texas,,,, Silence is Consent.
For users to be silent when they feel cheated, disgruntled, or ignored give those doing such actions consent to continue. When LWD feels the community is just whining, being argumentative, or simply doesn't understand their hurdles and challenges but yet remains silent, sorry, they to give consent. Consent to those that would come to their own conclusions or even those ones that feel the need to simply fan the flames, in unfortunate extreme cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toblakai (Post 256843)
A lot of forums would just close the thread, they probably should have done that instead.

Also true, censorship is not usually the best course of action... it also leads to silence...

2cp
DLG

Farnaby October 3rd, 2017 10:01 AM

Well if you call criticism toxic, that's your call.

I just hope that someone from LWD is listening to us.

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen (Post 256845)
Not True, and sorry your 140 or so posts and a user since 2016 hardly qualifies you to make such an assumption as to "higher end" here. When long time users even begin to voice their dissatisfaction, LWD should take notice. These are the people that their business lifeblood depends on. Not to imply new users don't or shouldn't have a voice, they should, but not all voices carry the same weight. The survey should have taught LWD that lesson. (whole other topic there)

Seriously? Throwing forum cred around? That is the point I bought RW, I bought hero lab many years before that. Been a lurker most of the time.

Dark Lord Galen October 3rd, 2017 10:34 AM

Welcome to the Unsilent Minority....;):D

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen (Post 256850)
Welcome to the Unsilent Minority....;):D

Do I get a "Dark Lord" title now too?

Dark Lord Galen October 3rd, 2017 10:49 AM

While that would earn you credence on the Word of Greyhawk forum (canonfire.com) here it might have the reverse effect.:eek: I have spent time in the basement of Rob's doghouse on more than one occasion.:D

BUT since you did confess for your predilection to lurking from the Shadows... we bestow on thee the unofficial moniker of Lurker of Shadows :cool:

As your unsilence experience grows and you take up the herald banner of Calendar-seeker... then we, the faithful calendar heralds, will look at a "level-up"...
Maawwaahhhaaa....:eek:

DLG

ShadowChemosh October 3rd, 2017 11:04 AM

The thread may not have been as toxic and hostile as many gaming sites have had. No one directly threatened to kill Rob or his family but it still served no useful purpose.

Everyone knows the CM is late including LW and having yet another thread filled with a echo chamber of complaints does nothing. Plenty of sites exist for this purpose already like Facebook or Twitter.

Its pretty clear that the only valid date is "when its done". Pretty much everyone has a simple choice. They walk away from RW and its products or you accept what the software does "today" is helpful for you. The software as is with import/export is just about perfect for myself. I still run into some bugs but so far I can fix them all myself.

The deletion of the thread should also clearly show the level of frustration on the LW side. At my own job customer service reps that deal with the "end" customer is in a totally different building. I personally never have to deal with the "hate" that is spewed at customer service. Good or bad my company keeps this separate for a reason as it prevents the drag down of all employees. In addition my work place has a huge HR staff dedicated to making the work environment safe, happy, professional and a "positive" place. This is because few people actually enjoy a day filled with negative emotions. The impact to performance is staggering when people are not happy. Hmmm anyone remember Rob being sick for many months now?

LW has no such protection. Every employee has to engage the community directly on TOP of doing their normal jobs. I am pretty sure few of us would stay at our own jobs if we had to deal with the general public all the time. I would totally want to drill a hole in my head if I had to deal with it for my day job! :eek:

I am not even free of adding to the problem myself. I have had to face the truth that a few things I posted where not really helpful but just empty complaints. Its something I plan to correct and maybe its not a bad idea for everyone to take a moment to reflect on what they write BEFORE they hit the "submit" key. Its really easy on forums/internet to forget that another human with feelings is reading what you wrote. Not an empty emotionless company.

meek75 October 3rd, 2017 11:25 AM

I just want to point that my original post (now deleted) was not only a complaint about the lack of communication and the loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time it has taken for CM. My primary complaint was the lack of customer service response I was getting to fix my sync failure. When CM was used as the excuse for the slow service it pushed my already sensitive buttons. I honestly feel like I only get the attention of LWD when I either send them a frustrated email or make it public on the boards. Obviously I have more issues that most of you. Probably because my groups plays lots of different games and that means I have lots of realms. If each each realm had one issue a year I would be dealing with 12 or 13 issues. Of course, I should not have to deal with so many issues and if I do I want to get them fixed. If an MS Word document became corrupted every few months through no fault of my own I would be mad and I would be using google sheets. Am I expecting too much from LWD? I have thought about that a lot, and I don't think I am. At this point I will not be buying cloud service and I will not be buying HLO. I no longer trust LWD to deliver a quality product or to deal with problems that come up. This may change. I hope it changes. For now, I will use the realms I have, but will not invest more time in them. I will not buy anything that cost more than a few bucks from the CM if it ever does launch. Tomorrow will make three weeks since I first submitted a help ticket for my sync failure. I have only gotten reply when I email them asking for an update. All the replys have been short and basically said "keep waiting". Several people have said I should move on, and I am quickly coming to the same conclusion.

Dhrakken October 3rd, 2017 11:30 AM

Shadowchemosh, you are a well respected member of this community and everyone respects your opinion however, I have to politely disagree with you. You see, as a consumer and customer, it is my right to express my displeasure at an organization, be they big or small. I've been working in the customer service industry for over 30 years and having to deal with customer dissatisfaction, while unpleasant, is part of what you sign up for when you are selling a product or service. They go hand in hand, no organization can escape this.

Now, how you deal with those complaints is what will dictate your long term viability as a company. The most important thing you can do is to listen to your customers and acknowledge them; if you don't... well you do so (or don't) to the detriment of your organization.

Dark Lord Galen October 3rd, 2017 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 256854)
The thread may not have been as toxic and hostile as many gaming sites have had. No one directly threatened to kill Rob or his family but it still served no useful purpose.

Shadow, with NOTHING but the upmost respect, I disagree... IF and only IF someone, anyone, on either side, can glean a viable solution through communication to not have the issue to begin with... I think the origin of the thread is a symptom of a larger problem, a lack of communication. Not at meeting targets, but as to what got us here in the first place. Certainly all add to that by their own perspectives of "other late items", but as again a symptom of the core problem they all have in common. Communication or as in this case a lack of. Whether that is response timing to fixing a problem (where this thread started), to here is where we are and what we have in front of us for obstacles and solutions.. good communication is KEY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 256854)
Plenty of sites exist for this purpose already like Facebook or Twitter..

True, but even less likely to resolve the core problem on the countless sites that would be. What better place than where one would hope to get those answers... AGAIN only if their is communication. And as you so rightly hint, to rant that produces nothing will fix nothing, but a vent unresolved.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 256854)
I am not even free of adding to the problem myself. I have had to face the truth that a few things I posted where not really helpful but just empty complaints. Its something I plan to correct

Ditto, hence why I have slowed my responses almost to nil, other than informative or information seeking, and most of those have been on the HL side. A promise I made to Liz before her departure. But I admit, as a left brained-engineer type its hard to left things unfixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 256854)
and maybe its not a bad idea for everyone to take a moment to reflect on what they write BEFORE they hit the "submit" key. Its really easy on forums/internet to forget that another human with feelings is reading what you wrote. Not an empty emotionless company.

WELL PUT... by someone that certainly has "forum cred" (new phrase I learned today):p

And certainly brings another thought to the surface... ID no problem without also presenting a solution....
For me, surely as a company LWD has an action Items list (or a variant of).
Doesn't have to be code jargon, or extended narrative. Bullets would certainly suffice that there is a movement to a goal, obstacles found, or identified or resolved and communicate that to those that support your efforts. We (well I hope all) are vested in the success of RW and LWD that within itself makes us passionate.. @ LWD Let us help you help us...

BUT AGAIN as Shadow reminds us, there are people on the other end too.

Andwith my 600th Post, I hope it is well spent...

Toblakai October 3rd, 2017 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhrakken (Post 256858)
Shadowchemosh, you are a well respected member of this community and everyone respects your opinion however, I have to politely disagree with you. You see, as a consumer and customer, it is my right to express my displeasure at an organization, be they big or small. I've been working in the customer service industry for over 30 years and having to deal with customer dissatisfaction, while unpleasant, is part of what you sign up for when you are selling a product or service. They go hand in hand, no organization can escape this.

Totally your right to voice your displeasure. it is not your right to do it on their forums. That is a privilege they grant to the users (or not).


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