Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

Hi all,

I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the army builder files for Mordheim.

Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more difficult route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code them up from scratch.

I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your files are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces :)

I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.

but, in the intrem,

Greetings!
-Mike Kitchenman


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Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

> Hi all,
>
> I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the
> challenge of re-coding the army builder files for
> Mordheim.

welcome to the group...And welcome to the Morheim
files...I was going to do them using the converter
(since I realy don't know more then the basics of
Mord) but after taking a look at it I'm glad someone
who knows what they're doing has come along...

> Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted
> 2.2 files or re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm
> taking the slightly more difficult route, but
> (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying
> to code them up from scratch.

Actually it's probably the bast call...When you
convert Mordheim it converts a whole bunch of
redundant exclusion groups that have a limit of 0-9999
and no model has more then one (if that)...And every
unit has these...Don't worry Rob, this isn't a
commentary on the converter (which is nice btw) just
the older Mordheim files are very complex...

> I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I
> get stuck.

That's what we're here for...

=====




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Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Death Lynx
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [AB] Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)

> welcome to the group...And welcome to the Morheim
> files...I was going to do them using the converter
> (since I realy don't know more then the basics of
> Mord) but after taking a look at it I'm glad someone
> who knows what they're doing has come along...

Thanks. I'll pretend I know what I'm doing for the time being. Oh, wait
you mean PLAYING mordheim, ok, yeah, I do know what I'm doing. (I think ;)

> Actually it's probably the bast call...When you
> convert Mordheim it converts a whole bunch of
> redundant exclusion groups that have a limit of 0-9999
> and no model has more then one (if that)...And every
> unit has these...Don't worry Rob, this isn't a
> commentary on the converter (which is nice btw) just
> the older Mordheim files are very complex...

I noticed that, not to mention AB itself was complaining about items with
hundreds of links in them which would cause slowness. *shudder* I was ok
(thank GOD i've got a Gig of RAM...) but it wasn't fun. and I'll second it,
the converter is a wonderful tool. The mordheim files just cover a lot of
ground, which is something I want to address in this version.

"Official Stuff" in one.

"Unofficial Stuff" in a second

and maybe (if I have a LOT of free time eventually) another one for other
settings.

But I think one issue the first one hit was it covered too many rules that
overlapped too much. (And my hats off to Chris M. for actually being able
to code them before. My props.)

> That's what we're here for...

*grins* Askin for it now are ye? ;)

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

I actually recommend that you USE the converter for the Mordheim files. But
in a way different from how it was originally intended. :-)

One of the most time-consuming things with data file authoring is all the
data entry. If you use the converter, then you don't have to re-enter
everything again. You can use the V2.x data files for that.

So I recommend using the converter to generate the basic data files. Then
go in and delete all the links from everything, which is where the V2.x
Mordheim files are out of control. Then you should be able to clean up the
converted options and items pretty easily. And then you can start building
up the units for a couple warbands by setting up all the appropriate links.
I'm guessing that this approach will save you at least 100 hours of data
entry time (based on how much raw data is in the V2.x data files). It will
also let you focus your energies on the interesting part of writng data
files instead of on data entry. :-)

There is a critical change you first need to make within the V2.x Mordheim
files before converting them. There is a unit in the file "options.mor"
that is used as the basis for EVERY other unit via inheritance. There are
two "lcmp" attributes for this unit, and they have to be replicated for
every unit in the converted files. These rules SHOULD be implemented via a
global race augmentation that defines them as "scmp" attributes that are
then shared by everything. Making this one change before running the
converter cuts the size and complexity of the converted files significantly.

Many of the rules that are generated by the converter can probably also be
ignored and re-created more effectively. So you might consider just
deleting all the rules after conversion as well. If you do, then the change
I describe above can be skipped, since you'll be deleting all the rules
anyways (which includes the hundreds of rules generated by the
inappropriate "lcmp" attribute).

Hope this helps,
Rob


At 06:50 PM 2/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the
>army builder files for Mordheim.
>
>Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or
>re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more difficult
>route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code
>them up from scratch.
>
>I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm
>managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your files
>are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces :)
>
>I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.
>
>but, in the intrem,
>
>Greetings!
>-Mike Kitchenman


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

> I'm guessing that this approach will save you at
> least 100 hours of data
> entry time (based on how much raw data is in the
> V2.x data files). It will
> also let you focus your energies on the interesting
> part of writng data
> files instead of on data entry. :-)

It took me roughly 2-3 hours to go through and try to
clean up only a handful of units when I was trying it
this way...The problem is that a majority of the units
have options which are split into 6-8 separate options
per price category (it seems that certain weapon
options are priced differently in different
rulesets)...Each of these 6-8 entries can be
consolidated into a single entry with 3-4 live tags...

>
> There is a critical change you first need to make
> within the V2.x Mordheim files before converting
> them.
. . .
> Many of the rules that are generated by the
> converter can probably also be
> ignored and re-created more effectively.

These would probably also save time...however I hadn't
gotten nearly that far...Personally I didn't find the
data entry nearly as tedious as some (especially when
y'all pointed out the "copy" feature) but all of the
option entry takes serious time one way or the other...

=====




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Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

At 06:37 PM 2/15/2005 -0800, you wrote:

> > I'm guessing that this approach will save you at
> > least 100 hours of data
> > entry time (based on how much raw data is in the
> > V2.x data files). It will
> > also let you focus your energies on the interesting
> > part of writng data
> > files instead of on data entry. :-)
>
>It took me roughly 2-3 hours to go through and try to
>clean up only a handful of units when I was trying it
>this way...The problem is that a majority of the units
>have options which are split into 6-8 separate options
>per price category (it seems that certain weapon
>options are priced differently in different
>rulesets)...Each of these 6-8 entries can be
>consolidated into a single entry with 3-4 live tags...

Based on my reading of this, your efforts were spent in cleaning up all the
links. My advice was to just delete ALL the links. This can be done by
quickly editing the raw XML file as a text file. Then the links can be
added back manually once he gets to working on that aspect. Links are
pretty quick and easy to setup in ABCreator, and they are the biggest
problem in the auto-converted files. So it's easiest just to start over
with them. :-)

-Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

suggestion highly noted.

Maybe tomorrow night.

Thanks, Rob! You are, in fact, DA MAN!

-Kitch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Bowes" <rob@wolflair.com>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)


>
> I actually recommend that you USE the converter for the Mordheim files.
But
> in a way different from how it was originally intended. :-)
>
> One of the most time-consuming things with data file authoring is all the
> data entry. If you use the converter, then you don't have to re-enter
> everything again. You can use the V2.x data files for that.
>
> So I recommend using the converter to generate the basic data files. Then
> go in and delete all the links from everything, which is where the V2.x
> Mordheim files are out of control. Then you should be able to clean up the
> converted options and items pretty easily. And then you can start building
> up the units for a couple warbands by setting up all the appropriate
links.
> I'm guessing that this approach will save you at least 100 hours of data
> entry time (based on how much raw data is in the V2.x data files). It will
> also let you focus your energies on the interesting part of writng data
> files instead of on data entry. :-)
>
> There is a critical change you first need to make within the V2.x Mordheim
> files before converting them. There is a unit in the file "options.mor"
> that is used as the basis for EVERY other unit via inheritance. There are
> two "lcmp" attributes for this unit, and they have to be replicated for
> every unit in the converted files. These rules SHOULD be implemented via a
> global race augmentation that defines them as "scmp" attributes that are
> then shared by everything. Making this one change before running the
> converter cuts the size and complexity of the converted files
significantly.
>
> Many of the rules that are generated by the converter can probably also be
> ignored and re-created more effectively. So you might consider just
> deleting all the rules after conversion as well. If you do, then the
change
> I describe above can be skipped, since you'll be deleting all the rules
> anyways (which includes the hundreds of rules generated by the
> inappropriate "lcmp" attribute).
>
> Hope this helps,
> Rob
>
>
> At 06:50 PM 2/12/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I'm a new guy who recently stepped up to the challenge of re-coding the
> >army builder files for Mordheim.
> >
> >Given the two alternatives of tweaking the converted 2.2 files or
> >re-coding them from scratch, so far I'm taking the slightly more
difficult
> >route, but (hopefully) ultimately more rewarding, and am trying to code
> >them up from scratch.
> >
> >I know i'm nuts, especially since I'm not the best of coders, but I'm
> >managing thus far. (Many thanks to the other coders out there, your
files
> >are a lot of help in showing me some useful pieces :)
> >
> >I'll probably be asking for help here and there as I get stuck.
> >
> >but, in the intrem,
> >
> >Greetings!
> >-Mike Kitchenman
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650)
588-8252
> Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'm gonna take a swipe at converting the Mordheim files; they just might prove to be as damned as the city of Mordheim itself!
I just got my copy of AB3; frankly, the absence of a Mordheim ruleset is what delayed my conversion from 2 to 3.

Cheers,
-- David

It may also be worth taking a look at the Necromunda files... The setup of the two games is very similar. I'm currently working on an update for the Necromunda files which adds a heap of extra stuff which may be worth looking at for ideas as well (keep an eye out for it if you think it might be useful :) ).

Russell.

OK, does anyone actually know what the current status is on getting Mordheim datafiles for AB 3.1? I run a Mordheim campaign in my store, and would very much love to have everyone using AB for their warbands. We use it for our Warhammer campaign, and it avoids so many potential problems, it's probably prevented a couple of fist fights. :)

Debbie

Sorry, I just couldn't get into it. Using the conversion script, it seemed to transfer okay, but I'm not running a campaign so I couldn't test it. I also have my own aesthetic for Mordheim rules, so building a data file from scratch would be way over my head at this point...

So, with the transfer script, it actually functioned reasonably well for a temporary solution?

I am a decent programmer, but a little short on time. If I'd thought about this 6 months ago, I could have worked on it at work during the off season (at my "day" job <g>), but now we're getting into season. If the transfer works at all, it would be better than what we have now (that is, if the file is small enough for my laptop to handle it!).

Debbie

It zips down to 2.5 megs, expands to over 40 megs. It took a lot of processing power to convert the original 2.x data.

Just go to my website; I uploaded the zip and put a link on my main gallery page.

Cheers,
-- David

------------------------------------------------------------------
see my motley collection of miniatures and my scrabbling html skill on my website:

http://cheddarmonger.museedrole.com/miniatures

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

When the converter was written, it was tested against the Mordheim files. The resulting files were a horrendously messy pig. This is largely due to a small number (less than 10) of silly things done within the V2.x data files that forced the converter to jump through lots of major hoops and generate vast amounts of special handling. After going in to the V2.x files and cleaning up about a half-dozen things, the converted files were shrunk to about one quarter the size from the first conversion.

Unfortunately, that was a year ago and I have no recollection of the specific things I modified in the V2.x files. I can definitely say that they were pretty easy to spot, since I only spent a couple hours with the Mordheim files.

Anyways, if you intend to convert the Mordheim files, definitely look into cleaning up the original V2.x files before conversion. It will pay off hugely in the resulting V3.x data files.

Another option to consider would be to get a team together to work on the Mordheim files. There are so many warbands that it would take one person a huge amount of time to do them all. However, each warband is very small in scope (compared to games like WFB and 40K). If one person spent the time to put together the basic framework for everything and then implemented a few of the core warbands, others could very readily join in to implement separate warbands. This would enable the core Mordheim data files to be up and running relatively quickly and then evolve steadily to cover all the various warbands. If GW allowed us to be involved in writing the data files, we'd have already done this. However, this is definitely a viable option for someone out there to consider.

Hope this helps,
Rob

At 07:00 PM 1/1/2006, you wrote:

I would be more than willing to do a number of the warbands from the Town Cryers (quite possibly all of them over time). I own every single one of the TCs, and have probably played or played against most of the warbands.

But as I said, I simply have a limited amount of time to do the basic research into the data files to set up the main files.

Sadly disappointed in V3.

I had an unregistered version of V2.x and it was complete and functional for Mordheim but I wanted to support this company with my purchase so went with the upgrade and now I find that Mordheim files are MIA???

Why is this company relying on the users to write code for them?
What did i just pay $40 for?

Well, especially in this case GW gets mighty picky about competition when it comes to creating lists...Basically their view seems to be (I might be misteaken) that people won't buy their books or 40K armybuilding program if they can make lists in another format...As such Lone Wolf can only provide the platform but can't be seen as promoting the files by creating them themselves...

But they HAVE 40K and Fantasy files or this wouldn't have sold at all...
And they HAVE Mordheim files in V2.x...

I'd appreciate if they just made the new version as useful as the old...
I feel mugged in that I COULD have stayed with the pirate version that worked for the games I play rather than pay for the "UPGRADE" which has LESS functionality... :(

hang on, you are complaining about paying for the upgrade and yet you are saying that you have been ripping off the company using a pirate version! Quit whinging!

Also, your fault for not doing the research into what datafiles are currently supported before purchasing the new version.

Yeah, I noticed that myself...Not the brightest thing to say on a company sponsored website... :roll:

I'm sure if he is asked nicely he will pass on his name and address so that the mordheim files can be sent to him ..... *cough*

read my posts again... I bought the full version because I don't like pirate copies. Someone else's pirate copy brought the product to my attention. So Pirate copies are sometimes useful advertisements to those who don't much like the whole burned/copied software. I don't condone it.. I just live in the world as it is.



And WTF is Whinging? spelling is your friend...

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

You might want to redirect your disappointment at GW. The reason that there are no data files for Mordheim is that GW has expressly forbidden us from directly involving ourselves in the writing of data files for their games. This forces us to rely on users for data files for GW games, regardless of whether we like that arrangement.

We make a demo version of AB readily available on our website so that users can take it for a test drive and verify that it meets their needs. This includes full access to all the available data files, since the criteria for many users centers on whether data files are available for game X.

The online ordering process includes a prominent reminder to users to verify the product and data file availability before purchase. Unfortunately, some users blaze right through the online ordering process without reading the material presented, even if it has the word "IMPORTANT!" in all caps and bright yellow text preceeding it. :-( If you have suggestions on how we can make this clearer, I'd love to hear them.

If you only play Mordheim, then AB3 won't be of any use for you right now. That's regrettable, but it's not something we have any control over due to GW's current stance on the issue. If you don't play other games, the only option available is for us to refund your purchase and disable your license. To have us do that, please send an email to support@wolflair.com requesting this. Be sure to include a brief explanation, the name used in the purchase, and the original order number (from the receipt email you received). We can then take of things from this end.

-Rob

At 09:37 AM 1/18/2006, you wrote:

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

OK, folks, simmer down. While I greatly appreciate the zeal with which many of you regularly leap to AB's defense, that's still not justification for leaping to conclusions and coming down hard on someone. :-)

The fact is that the security mechanism of V2 was cracked and there are countless people out there using pirated copies. There's nothing that can be done about that at this point in time. The good news is that V3 has not been cracked (yet, at least). From my perspective, if someone has paid for V3 then they are a legitimate customer and must be treated with the same courtesy and respect that loyal users from back in the V1 days receive. The past use of a pirated copy of V1 or V2 is irrelevant once they buy the product.

If someone purchases V3 for a game system that doesn't have data files yet, then they absolutely missed multiple reminders from us that would have avoided the problem. But the reality is that, in business, good customer service means making sure the customer is taken care of, even if they are at least partially culpable in the problem. Since we pride ourselves on good customer service - I'm guessing that's why many of our loyal users ARE so loyal - it's not about pointing the finger and fixing the blame. It's about fixing the problem.

In this case, fixing the problem may mean refunding a purchase. That's OK. I would much rather have a customer grouse about having gotten a refund because we don't support what he wants than grouse about having paid for a product he can't use. The latter is simply bad press, while the former re-affirms that we stand by our products and will do what we can to make sure customers are not disappointed in their purchase. That fosters trust, which is something sorely lacking is most of the business world these days.

OK, it's time for me to step down off the soapbox. Again, I greatly appreciate the support voiced by everyone. All I'm asking for is that the accusations and blame assignment be reserved for the idiots that show up asking for a cracked copy of the product. :-)

Thanks, Rob

At 06:51 AM 1/21/2006, you wrote:

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

Actually, the spelling "whinging" is considered the "proper" spelling in various areas around the globe. In the States, the 'g' is omitted, but in other regions it's correct. Since this is a global community, different spellings will be encountered, and we all need to recognize and accept those differences.

I realize that you were attacked on this forum, so I'm going to cut you some slack. However, responding in kind on silly things like spelling and the use of foul acronyms is normally sufficient grounds to get at least temporarily banned from the forums. Please take a few minutes to cool down and wait before hitting the Send button on your posts.

Please also note that your original post about the data files was very accusatory, and that will often elicit an attack in response. That was yet another situation where pausing a few minutes before hitting Send would have greatly benefitted everyone on this forum. Your concerns could have been voiced equally well with less accusatory language.

Here's hoping that the tone of posts returns to their usual congenial nature.....

-Rob

At 07:56 AM 1/22/2006, you wrote:

So how is the progress on the morheim files coming along? It's been a few months since the last post...

Greetings, I'm in over my head! (most likely)
 

My understanding at this point is that Mordheim data files that cover the core warbands in the book will be completed around the end of the month or in early April. That's all I've heard at this point, and it's not an absolute guarantee, since the files are being developed by a volunteer that has taken on the task. This estimate is based on comments from the author in response to various support questions he's sent in about writing the files. I recommend checking in again for an update around the end of the month.

-Rob

At 10:31 AM 3/7/2006, you wrote:

That is fantastic news! Please tell him thank you from me for all his hard work!