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-   -   Giving up on Ream Works (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=57676)

ChipmunkPDX February 12th, 2017 11:04 AM

Giving up on Ream Works
 
Due to my love for Hero Lap, I decided to buy Realm Works because I was going to GM for the first time (Rise of the Runelords). But because of the delay from Real Works...where they kept releasing dates with what seems some confidence only to never follow through, I kept pushing of the start date of our new game. I am glad I held off asking the players to buy a copy, because I am going to jump ship. Its sad that the company of my favorite software has been responsible for such a failure in promises and communication. So, I understand things can get behind, but you shouldn't give dates if you are that far behind schedule. If your customer's can't trust you, how long do you expect to keep them?

Anyone else jump ship, and if so what have you gone to? I just bought Scabard.com to try it out, but open to suggestions. (I know they don't provide a Content market either, but they don't keep promising to give you one... and would rather use something where I know what I am getting instead of a bunch of empty promises.)

B57123m February 12th, 2017 11:43 AM

You have made it this far and the Content Market is the closest to being within your grasp, and now you jump ship? Seems kind of brash when in even a month's time you could have what you are looking for. Things take time and delays happen. LWD has been up front with that since they stopped giving specific dates.

You are free to do whatever you please but you will most likely shop around and struggle to find what you are looking for only to realize that Realm Works is out and works just as you want.

kbs666 February 12th, 2017 01:13 PM

You are going to run a decade old AP that will likely take more than a year but a months delay has put you off RW?

daplunk February 12th, 2017 01:23 PM

The Content Market is so close I couldn't imagine jumping ship now. In this situation to get angry would be simply inhumane. They provided a date that they were confident to hit and then the primary developer ended up in hospital with an unexpected issue. He's still in recovery and yet throughout that whole process he was logged on for ridiculous hours coding to ensure he could deliver on the promises as soon as possible.

Sorry mate I will not personally hold that against LWD. It's a small company who could not have possible just powered on without Rob.

If you must go then that is your choice. I have personally tried Scabard.com and it has next to nothing on Realm Works. The only feature superior to RW IMO is the circle relationship view that they have. It works well but only provides a high level summary of the things you click meaning you have to put more work in to read the actual content than the same feature in RW does.

As a BETA tester I have seen the content. I can tell you that it is amazing. I know exactly what we are all about to get and it is going to save some serious time for alot of us. By the time you get your first few sections entered into Scabard we will be downloading it in mere moments.

I've tried all the campaign managers I can find. Realm Works is the most mature product with the most robust list of features.

Good luck out there. Look forward to seeing you again in the future.

Acenoid February 12th, 2017 02:01 PM

It seems you have bought Realm Works already right? So just remember to come back when the Content Market is out and then (re)evaluate.

I haven't seen it and for me the content market is not the primary selling point of the product, but since it is a major point for you, there is not much to loose by checking in from time to time.

I also think that LWD is doing well most of the time with the communications and it seems that they are also willing to deviate a little from their plans and listen to the customers. Of course sometimes you still have to pick the "unpopular" choice, due to other reasons.

EightBitz February 12th, 2017 04:50 PM

This is the wrong time to give up. Exactly the wrong time. I gave up (temporarily) a long time ago, and just bided my time ... until now. Now we have the import/export ability, and my export script that allows you to export to HTML format or Word format.

You can export only revealed content, and you can export each topic as an individual file. This means that if you have your own website somewhere, or your own wiki, or an obsidian portal account, you can export and publish your revealed content on a website for your players.

It's a couple of extra steps, but it's there. And the content market is coming.

Expectations have not been managed well, I'll grant you that. Heck, even Rob will grant you that. But now ... now is not the time to jump ship. Now is the time to get on board. The import/export feature alone provides a host of possibilities that we didn't have before.

Bidmaron February 12th, 2017 04:57 PM

Hey, a lot bigger software companies than LWD have grossly missed release targets before. In fact those that make targets most often just redefine what was supposed to be in the release anyway.

If you insist in leaving, look at the Keep from NBOS software. It is a HUGE step down, though, and there is no content market.

It is kind of difficult to imagine that you are leaving because LWD didn't meet their target dates and are willing to explore alternatives that will likely NEVER have what you are looking for, but, hey, whatever....

EightBitz February 12th, 2017 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244065)
Hey, a lot bigger software companies than LWD have grossly missed release targets before. In fact those that make targets most often just redefine what was supposed to be in the release anyway.

If you insist in leaving, look at the Keep from NBOS software. It is a HUGE step down, though, and there is no content market.

It is kind of difficult to imagine that you are leaving because LWD didn't meet their target dates and are willing to explore alternatives that will likely NEVER have what you are looking for, but, hey, whatever....

And that's because Rob really is passionate about his work, as evidenced by his working from his sick bed, against his doctor's orders, I'm sure. (Get some rest, Rob!)

Aside from a professional database, I have honestly never seen a product as well-featured and as flexible as Realm Works.

You can ask anyone here how much of a critic I was about how deadlines were always missed before its initial release. But once it was, and once I saw it ... WOW.

My only hold out after that was printing. Still, I did use it to run RotL. We never got all the way through it, because life happens (not because of any shortcomings of RW), but it helped me keep track of things, and if we ever go back, I know right where we left off ... and I can recap for the party ... because of Realm Works.

MNBlockHead February 12th, 2017 11:46 PM

I checked out the various "competitors" from time to time (Obsidian Portal, City of Brass, the various VTTs, The Keep, etc.), but nothing come close to RW as a campaign management tool. You are obviously frustrated, but after you cool down and waste your time with other tools, I expect you'll be back.

1. Giving up on software that you have a perpetual license for to a yearly service that not only doesn't give you what you were missing in RW, but has fewer features than RW is illogical. Seems like an emotional knee-jerk reaction. What does Scarab.com give that makes it worth it to give up on our $50 software for a $30 per year service?

2. You still won't have RotRL in Scarrab. Are you planning to enter it into Scabbard? Why would it be better in Scabbard than in RW?

3. You say you love HeroLabs. Are you giving up on HL as well as RW? Otherwise, why give up the excellent integration between HL and RW?

You are making a bad decision for yourself in a fit of frustration. You'll either be back or you'll commit to your poor decision "out of principle."

If Scabard.com is a better decision for you, I'd be interested in knowing why. I'm not seeing it.

tkarn February 13th, 2017 12:41 AM

I love HeroLab and I love RealmWorks. With both programms I can manage my gamesystem, characters and realm. I made a german version of my gamesystem in Herolab, I made german categories for my world in RealWorks. For me, both works fine. I tried other programms, but they were not so flexible, as I need it. I have to say, at the moment I need no content market, or any adventure path (but I think in future I will use it). But I organized my realm in the way I need it. Printing and a custum calendar would be nice, but I know, it has not the #1 priority and so I can waint.
I had some problems in converting my game system and I must say, the support is very great! Now everything works fine. For me RealmWorks is the correct solution.

gaffneyks February 13th, 2017 06:54 AM

If you were a 5th edition player, I could totally understand given the lack of content for 5e in the Content Market and the fact that they are not ready to bring WOTC content to the Content Market yet.

But you are a Pathfinder player, that is LWD Content Market focus. I bet the pathfinder players will always get the latest and greatest from Paizo as compared to the 5e players who can't even get WOTC content at all. All you have to do is wait for them to get the final bugs out and you are GOLDEN!

Yes, the wait has been long and they have not meet the dates stated, but that is common in the IT industry. And look at all the patches they have released this year! Some IT companies go on a release schedule and if you find a bug and the product in not usable, its just tough cookies till the next release. At least this company is responsive. I have even seen the owner on the forum asking players to make sure the problem that they complained about was fixed to their satisfaction.

On a final note, Realm Works is very easy to use compared to some of the other products i have looked into recently.

Zortek February 13th, 2017 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244034)
Anyone else jump ship, and if so what have you gone to?

Aside from MNBlockHead and Bidmaron (minimally), none of the responses actually addressed your question. However, there's no shortage of people willing to be critical of your position. I am not in that camp.
  • The Keep 2.0 is another campaign and game management system for Windows, though it looks like it could use an update and costs around $35 to buy. I'm not a fan. It is aging poorly. :eek:
  • DM Genie is a Windows tool for players and game masters running the third edition (or revision 3.5) of Dungeons and Dragons. Itís no longer supported by developers and thus free to download. I'm not a fan. It is past its expiration date. :eek:
  • Scrivener is a comprehensive writing project management package used by screenwriters, novelists, and anyone who needs a hand organizing a big project. It can also be used to create a comprehensive overview of your campaign, story, characters, NPCs, and more (though thereíll be a lot of manual work involved). I am a fan. I like this product. It is well designed and fit for purpose; that purpose being (professional) organized writing. :cool:

    I would be doing the answer a disservice if I didn't also mention "old school" pen and paper; notebooks are still in my toolkit.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244034)
I am glad I held off asking the players to buy a copy, because I am going to jump ship.

I say, "Good on you!"

All the apologists making all the excuses don't change your situation. You must do what is best for your players, your story, and ultimately for you.

The bottom line is that LWD is an organization of folk of good intentions and good ideas. However, good intentions and good ideas only hold water for so long in business.

The ad hoc business strategy at this juncture is to over promise and under deliver. This is exactly the opposite approach that a company with a sector/industry flagship (a.k.a. best-in-class) product should apply.

Every delivery at this point comes with self-aggrandizing fanfare; however, because there is so much expectation baked into releases, delivery is generally unremarkable for the consumer. This reflects a gross lack of over-the-horizon planning, marketing savvy, and community management.

Perception is king. Managing perception is king making. Resource constraints are simply a fact of business and life in general. It is most sad that LWD is unaware of the fact that every release of product is met with as much resentment as satisfaction. It is also most sad that revenue generating content has been pushed so far into the vanguard that both desirable and necessary functional capabilities are perceived as being neglected. -- "There are only so many programming hours in a day."
The bottom line is, when one is in a hole, stop digging. This is as true for producers as it is for consumers. LWD operates on the principle of making promises with the noble intention of honoring them some day. Well, one can only dip from the promissory bucket so often before the bucket is empty.

Its time to refill the bucket.

Refilling the bucket begins with rolling back historical product, delivery, and support expectations. Refilling the bucket continues with a commitment to responsible, pragmatic project (and business) management. Keeping the bucket filled includes a commitment to living documentation, honest marketing, and uplifting community management.
Unless and until the deciders choose to acknowledge problems exists, there can be no improvement; mismanagement and failed leadership will persist in corroding the brand. I believe it is important for people to speak truth to power, demonstrate honest dissatisfaction, and challenge group-think with candor.

Good luck to you.

EightBitz February 13th, 2017 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244131)
[INDENT]The bottom line is, when one is in a hole, stop digging. This is as true for producers as it is for consumers. LWD operates on the principle of making promises with the noble intention of honoring them some day. Well, one can only dip from the promissory bucket so often before the bucket is empty.

I understand everyone has a different perception, but from where I sit, the digging has stopped.
  • I can build worlds, campaigns and adventures in a very flexible environment.
  • I can build a core system, export that, and import it into other realms so I can keep a gold copy of my core system intact while using another copy in a dynamic play environment.
  • In that same manner, I can design an adventure once, export it and import it, and use that to keep track of different groups.
  • I can present to my players on the web.
  • I can present to my players at the table.

By your own admission, most of the products you listed are showing their age or are unsupported. Scrivener is great, but it's not designed to do what Realm Works does. I have Scrivener, and I use it. Not to say it's not a great tool, but it serves a different purpose.

I am no apologist. I fully concede that expectations have not been handled well. I said that before it was even released. I've watched Realm Works struggle to grow up. The process hasn't been perfect. But now it's finally starting to mature.

I can do everything I need to do with it. I know that the content market is important for revenue, and that custom calendars are important for people who are far more detailed than I in designing their worlds. I'm not going to say I would be happy if these things never came to be, but I will say that with HTML/World conversion script, the product is eminently usable without them.

But still, I eagerly anticipate seeing the product come to its full maturity.

Dark Lord Galen February 13th, 2017 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244131)
A..............
The bottom line is that LWD is an organization of folk of good intentions and good ideas. However, good intentions and good ideas only hold water for so long in business.

The ad hoc business strategy at this juncture is to over promise and under deliver. This is exactly the opposite approach that a company with a sector/industry flagship (a.k.a. best-in-class) product should apply.
.....................
Perception is king. Managing perception is king making. Resource constraints are simply a fact of business and life in general. It is most sad that LWD is unaware of the fact that every release of product is met with as much resentment as satisfaction. It is also most sad that revenue generating content has been pushed so far into the vanguard that both desirable and necessary functional capabilities are perceived as being neglected. -- "There are only so many programming hours in a day."
The bottom line is, when one is in a hole, stop digging. This is as true for producers as it is for consumers. LWD operates on the principle of making promises with the noble intention of honoring them some day. Well, one can only dip from the promissory bucket so often before the bucket is empty.

Its time to refill the bucket.

Refilling the bucket begins with rolling back historical product, delivery, and support expectations. Refilling the bucket continues with a commitment to responsible, pragmatic project (and business) management. Keeping the bucket filled includes a commitment to living documentation, honest marketing, and uplifting community management.
Unless and until the deciders choose to acknowledge problems exists, there can be no improvement; mismanagement and failed leadership will persist in corroding the brand. I believe it is important for people to speak truth to power, demonstrate honest dissatisfaction, and challenge group-think with candor.

Good luck to you.


Zortek... very well put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eightbitz
I understand everyone has a different perception, but from where I sit, the digging has stopped.

@ Eightbitz ... while I have enjoyed your posts in the past and certainly your community support has been stellar, got to say I disagree with this one. It has only slowed.... LWD still sends out polls and then proceeds with what they feel is needed regardless of the feedback. I do understand some is based on economic survivability and whom they develop partnered relationships with.. but with those as Zotek so rightly points out, are the vangards that drive the path forward, there is no real need to raise false hope with polls that are skewed or at best simply a weathervane.

In reality, they still (now years later) have failed to deliver on things (no sense listing that horse has been beat to death) presumably close or already present features (in need of better UI) when Realm Works was initially released.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan warts and all, and I have used many of the other software management tools (and others) mentioned and Realmworks will be superior to all of them... but " the soon well has runnith dry". And polls won't fill it.
From my players perspective, their purchase of RW player's addition was a waste of money and they have abandoned it. Fortunately the expense there is not large, BUT Without Calendars, individual player and character reveal, and pc journals and multiple unrecoverable crashes they simply utilize other products for these and Herolab for their PC Sheets because of the lack of funtionality.

@ Chipmunk > as to giving up... like others have stated.. at this point??? unless there is some feature you just can't run your game without that you have not mentioned? I would suggest, at the very least, you could utilize RW as I do, as an electronic file cabinet for your world. IT certainly beats combing through reams of handwritten notes to quickly find obscure info and arrange your past, and present game notes in one place.
just my 2cp

Bidmaron February 13th, 2017 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244131)
Unless and until the deciders choose to acknowledge problems exists, there can be no improvement; mismanagement and failed leadership will persist in corroding the brand. I believe it is important for people to speak truth to power, demonstrate honest dissatisfaction, and challenge group-think with candor.

Zortek, I am not sure what leads you to believe most of what is in that paragraph. I don't want to get in a flame war, but I am not aware that LWD has failed to acknowledge any of the delays or problems stemming from them. (I suspect the stress from that was a big part of his recent hospitalization). Aside from schedule, it seems like they either have or intend to keep all their promises. I have not had to pay anything for the free cloud service I have enjoyed for at least two years, as just one example.

I was not personally attacking him, I was merely pointing out that it is illogical to abandon a product that is widely recognized as the most capable product in its category (even when expanded to include scrivener) because it does not include a content feature when absolutely zero of the competitor products in the category (unless you inappropriately expand it to include VTTs) have that feature.

That is almost a textbook case of an illogical decision.

EightBitz February 13th, 2017 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen (Post 244173)
@ Eightbitz ... while I have enjoyed your posts in the past and certainly your community support has been stellar, got to say I disagree with this one. It has only slowed.... LWD still sends out polls and then proceeds with what they feel is needed regardless of the feedback. I do understand some is based on economic survivability and whom they develop partnered relationships with.. but with those as Zotek so rightly points out, are the vangards that drive the path forward, there is no real need to raise false hope with polls that are skewed or at best simply a weathervane.

I think in principle, though, we agree. My community support HAS been stellar.

No, no, I'm kidding. My community support is modeled after others who've worked on the community packs, on Doctor Who, on GURPS Lite (even though that one was pulled, at the request of Steve Jackson Games, whom I've stopped supporting).

But back to the matter at hand. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy RW right now based on future promises. Nor am I saying everyone should have their players buy licenses for player view. Until the Import Export feature was released, Realm Works has mostly been collecting dust on my machine for quite a long time.

What I AM saying is that if you've already invested, and if you've held out this long, this is the wrong time to jump ship.

But everyone's gotta do what they gotta do. I'm not trying to insult or shame anyone. I hope that whoever gives up here and moves on finds something that'll make them happy. I just think the timing is wrong.

Viking2054 February 13th, 2017 10:02 PM

I think, for some, the real problem was getting their players to buy the player version. For the GM, the GM version is probably the best product available as a campaign management tool. But for players, I think, the product is lacking in key features they want. It is one of the reasons I have not encouraged anyone in my gaming group from buying. It is also why I've advised anyone that has asked me to 'wait until the content market comes out.'

I still believe RW's biggest setback was the switch over to HTML late in the products life. I understand the need to do it, but I think it should of been undertaken much earlier in the products development. As soon as possible after deciding on a web based product would of been ideal for the switch. Anyway, hindsight is 20/20 and it's too late to do anything about it now.

Is it the perfect piece of software for campaign management? Not yet, but it is well on it's way for being the current best.

By the way, I blame Hasbro/WotC for lack of DnD support. Their stance on digital tools is asinine. If they followed Paizo's approach and forced a PDF purchase with a RW code, they would probably greatly increase their sales. I know it would make the community demanding PDF's of DnD happy to finally be able to purchase them.

Zortek February 14th, 2017 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244179)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244131)
Unless and until the deciders choose to acknowledge problems exists, [...]

Zortek, I am not sure what leads you to believe most of what is in that paragraph. I don't want to get in a flame war, but I am not aware that LWD has failed to acknowledge any of the delays or problems stemming from them. (I suspect the stress from that was a big part of his recent hospitalization). Aside from schedule, it seems like they either have or intend to keep all their promises. I have not had to pay anything for the free cloud service I have enjoyed for at least two years, as just one example.

For clarity, I believe there is a distinction between incidents and problems. Events that result in missed milestones are are incidents. Failing to meet expectations is a problem. This may seem like linguistic acrobatics or pedantic frivolity; however, the distinction is well documented in business process management and continuous improvement practice (and well beyond the polite scope of social brevity). :p

I appreciate your feedback. And I believe we are well within the fuzzy boundaries of agreement. I can see how, in rushing my wrap-up, I sabotaged my own message in the last paragraph (and how your read is appropriately vexed). This is my failing; my post closure was ill-crafted and predicated on argumentation I failed to adequately provide. I stipulate to your comments as they are appropriate as contextually framed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244179)
I was not personally attacking him, I was merely pointing out that it is illogical to abandon a product that is widely recognized as the most capable product in its category (even when expanded to include scrivener) because it does not include a content feature when absolutely zero of the competitor products in the category (unless you inappropriately expand it to include VTTs) have that feature.

I agree. Though I did suggest that feedback to the OP was, in large part, critical of the OP's idea, I do not feel any of the shock and dismay could be characterized as a personal attack on the OP.

I am a huge fan of RW. RW has, at present, a permanent place in my toolkit. Like many others, I believe it is fit for purpose (warts and all). And, for reasons that are entirely my own, I am unlikely to ever avail myself of any commercial offering from the content marketplace. Part of me hopes the delivery delay is infinite so as to perpetuate free cloud service. However, I know such hope is futile... but I digress.

To me, the OP statement/action possesses no logic gap. I see the decision as part of a consumer journey. It is neither a point of origin nor a destination. I honestly believe his action is a commitment to consumer values.

I cannot deny that from some points-of-view, such action may seem illogical. However, because I see it as a journey, I compassionately welcome anyone to pass in or out the door. If the other side of the threshold offers less suffering, then by all means, let us rejoice in that.

It is often said, "The grass is greener over the septic tank." :eek:

We all are confronted by the same basic question, can we appreciate the aroma where we presently stand sufficient that we are not motivated to take to different turf.

---

I too desire no flame war. While I insist on projecting a tone that ranges from coaching to finger-waggling toward LWD, I pray my tone with you has been even more constructive. :)

Bidmaron February 14th, 2017 04:57 AM

Zortek, it is always a joy to be able to speak civilly about an issue where they may be disagreement.

Thanks for keeping it that way.

I do have a little trouble understanding why folks are upset with player edition. It is missing key features currently, but at its launch there was never any attempt to disguise that it was missing those features. Now if the rage is because there was anticipation that those missing features would be available in a more timely way, I can somewhat understand that. However, no one should buy a product that clearly is missing what they consider essential features.

Pollution February 14th, 2017 05:29 AM

Deleted

Dark Lord Galen February 14th, 2017 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244205)
Zortek, it is always a joy to be able to speak civilly about an issue where they may be disagreement.

Thanks for keeping it that way.

@Bid & Zortek... Totally Agree
And in general to keep the thread on track, like others ...IMO it seems if you have already made the investment in RW why not weather the storm? I could see abandonment if the cost would be an annual fee or if/when the cloud services kick in and you don't see a value added there, but (as others could probably attest) I don't defend LWD lightly, but they have been supportive even in those elements.
Extending the Cloud, even saying as much as if you no longer want the cloud, thats cool, just update on occassion in case you change your mind as some later date and wish to come back... thats pretty flexible IMO.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244205)
I do have a little trouble understanding why folks are upset with player edition. It is missing key features currently, but at its launch there was never any attempt to disguise that it was missing those features. Now if the rage is because there was anticipation that those missing features would be available in a more timely way, I can somewhat understand that. However, no one should buy a product that clearly is missing what they consider essential features.

I can clarify, at least from the feedback of my own players....
not saying they are right or wrong just how it was received and perceived.

When first launched, the Players version stumbled right out of the block. There were several crashes and I had several players lose game logs. Most data, fortunately was transferred from other docs such as word or handwritten, but some gaming sessions were lost. But this still started the mistrust of secure info.
Part of the advertised features at release were:
  • [1]Itís never been easier to find an important tidbit that your character deduced many sessions ago
    [2]Review information that has been shared in previous games,
    [3]Keep track of ideas for the evolution of your character
Just to name a few.
Now at the time, these were interpreted differently due to the vagueness of how they were portrayed. We have since come to know what the intent of the meaning was, but that was not apparent at the release.
  • [1]Was interpreted that each character could know and search for info that only that character knew. Reality, not there yet. Reveals are an all or none currently.

    [2]Kind of a subset of the first, with a dash of missing in game calendaring (our campaign is very time line driven and without a good calendar, determining where what group was was difficult) utilizing no calendar and a extremely basic storyboard concept. Granted this is compounded due to the complexities of our campaign that may not be like others and that our campaign alternates between two different groups which also exacerbates the situation. My players had hope of being able to time line each of their groups in game time relative to the other. The failure of RW on the DM end cascaded into the Players addition here as this could not be shared or revealed because it didn't exist in the DM side to do so.

    [3]This is a compound problem, again due to en-mass reveal, character driven goals could not be shared (imagine if the group knew one among them was a spy?) and those thoughts, plans could not be conveyed to just the DM since this was a one way street of information. Forcing those things to be noted and discussed outside the record of RW, which is why it was purchased to begin with.
I have always been (sorry Chemlak:)) the biggest banner waver for the Calendar. It is integral to our campaign to have multiple calendars based on Races, moons, and geo-politicals. BUT I have also gone on record that I can continue (and have) with my access program and excel to manage that, just as I have for the 20 years in the past. Only if that is further supporting the Player versioning to what it should be. As for now, unless you simply use it as a sudoskype gaming session its DOA.

Again that is just perception of players who have purchased it and tried to use in in a campaign that has 30 years of real world back history built into the game. I assume part of the blame for their purchase, as I had championed it as a good tool to manage the elements (and others) above based on what I thought I knew about RW at the time and how that would work with the Player version. Some of those assumptions were misled on LW part others my eagerness to actually have a tool we all had hoped for...

It is what is is... My players have casted it aside and I use it as an electronic filecabinet with the waning hope that someday "soon" will come.

Dark Lord Galen February 14th, 2017 06:48 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244197)
......... This may seem like linguistic acrobatics or pedantic frivolity; however, the distinction is well documented in business process management and continuous improvement practice (and well beyond the polite scope of social brevity). :p

LOL ROFL Now thats Funny!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244197)
I appreciate your feedback. And I believe we are well within the fuzzy boundaries of agreement.

Agreed I think the community as a whole for this thread is vocalizing the same basic elements .. in for a penny in for a pound....


Quote:

Originally Posted by Zortek (Post 244197)
I too desire no flame war. While I insist on projecting a tone that ranges from coaching to finger-waggling toward LWD, I pray my tone with you has been even more constructive. :)

AGREED and Bravo Sir
http://forums.wolflair.com/attachmen...1&d=1487083599

EightBitz February 14th, 2017 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen (Post 244216)
LOL ROFL Now thats Funny!


Agreed I think the community as a whole for this thread is vocalizing the same basic elements .. in for a penny in for a pound....




AGREED and Bravo Sir
http://forums.wolflair.com/attachmen...1&d=1487083599

No, not even that so much. "in for a penny, in for a pound" is a metaphor for investing MORE of something. For instance: "You already bought the main program and five player licenses, why not buy three more?" Or "Why not wait for the content market and buy just one adventure path and see what an 'official' realm looks like."

But no one is suggesting that sort of thing. We're saying, "you're in for a penny ... you don't have to go in for a pound. Just don't waste penny's worth."

ChipmunkPDX February 14th, 2017 08:17 AM

I am coming from a long time player to a first time GM. Most of my extra income has gone directly to Paizo and Lone Wolf. I am the kind of person who needs the physical books, PDFs just don't do it for me. I have also bought all but AP and campaigns expansions for hero lab...hundreds of dollars. I don't want anyone to think just because of my frustration with Realm Works that I'm at all disappointed in Hero Labs. I think that is amazing. (Including their support for MAC and iOS)

I guess I was expecting Realm Works to be further along from what I read. Being a MAC person, I actually went out and bought a Microsoft laptop just so I can try Realm Works. I write code for a big chunk of my job, and understand delays, but when going through their releases... just seemed like they would have been further along. So my expectations didn't match the experience. I agree after looking at other options that there isn't much out there... so I think I will pass on being a GM for awhile and continue to enjoy playing in campaigns until I get the urge to try once more.... by then hopefully Realm Works will have what I expected it to have to help me.

adzling February 14th, 2017 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244222)
I guess I was expecting Realm Works to be further along from what I read. Being a MAC person, I actually went out and bought a Microsoft laptop just so I can try Realm Works.

I run realmworks on my mac via parallels.

works great@!

EightBitz February 14th, 2017 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244222)
I am coming from a long time player to a first time GM. Most of my extra income has gone directly to Paizo and Lone Wolf. I am the kind of person who needs the physical books, PDFs just don't do it for me. I have also bought all but AP and campaigns expansions for hero lab...hundreds of dollars. I don't want anyone to think just because of my frustration with Realm Works that I'm at all disappointed in Hero Labs. I think that is amazing. (Including their support for MAC and iOS)

I guess I was expecting Realm Works to be further along from what I read. Being a MAC person, I actually went out and bought a Microsoft laptop just so I can try Realm Works. I write code for a big chunk of my job, and understand delays, but when going through their releases... just seemed like they would have been further along. So my expectations didn't match the experience. I agree after looking at other options that there isn't much out there... so I think I will pass on being a GM for awhile and continue to enjoy playing in campaigns until I get the urge to try once more.... by then hopefully Realm Works will have what I expected it to have to help me.

Keep an eye on the Humble Books Bundles. In the past ... maybe year or so? Paizo has offered two PDF bundles for quite a good deal. The first was a rule book collection (Core Rulebook, the Advanced guides, the Ultimate guides), and the second and more recent one was a bundle of adventure paths.

I got the first, but not the second, as I don't currently have disposable income. I have no idea if Paizo will offer other bundles through this site, but if they do, you can save a LOT of money.

You get the codes to unlock the PDFs on Paizo's site, so it's all perfectly official. There's nothing shifty about this. The Bundle of Holding site supports charities, and they work with content providers to offer different deals every couple of weeks or every month or however often they change.

Even if you don't find Paizo stuff there, it's a great site to watch for other deals.

https://www.humblebundle.com/books

And there's also the Bundle of Holding. It's a different site (I'm guessing a different organization), but the same concept, and it focuses specifically on RPG books. I have not yet seen any Pathfinder stuff there. They usually work with titles from DrivethruRPG. But that's not to say there never WILL be Pathfinder stuff there. Just keep an eye out.

https://bundleofholding.com

I think you can sign up for email updates on both sites.

GamingSam February 14th, 2017 12:58 PM

If I may add my experience as someone new to Realm Works and Hero Lab

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244222)
I am the kind of person who needs the physical books, PDFs just don't do it for me.

Yes, me too. To actually read and learn a system, I prefer a physical book. During play, when I need to look something up quick, I use a PDF or some other method.

Back when I started gaming carrying an Amiga and 14" CRT to someones house for computer aid was not a consideration (and there wouldn't have been any useful software for it anyway!)

But then, 25 years ago I could keep most of a system and the adventure in my head. 15 years ago I could keep some of it in there and was sharp enough to wing the rest. These days I need something written down and easy to locate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244222)
I guess I was expecting Realm Works to be further along from what I read. Being a MAC person, I actually went out and bought a Microsoft laptop just so I can try Realm Works. I write code for a big chunk of my job, and understand delays, but when going through their releases... just seemed like they would have been further along. So my expectations didn't match the experience. I agree after looking at other options that there isn't much out there... so I think I will pass on being a GM for awhile and continue to enjoy playing in campaigns until I get the urge to try once more.... by then hopefully Realm Works will have what I expected it to have to help me.

I have also bought a Microsoft laptop just to run Realm Works and Campaign Cartographer. Actually, I have been running the latter on the Mac under VMWare Fusion, but I will be moving it across. I also have Hero Labs on the laptop now.

I have come from developing plots on Scrivener, a program I really like using. Take Scrivener, put in clickable cross referencing, make it not just handle images properly inline but also part of the cross referencing mechanic, make it less general and more specific to RPGs... this is getting on for being perfect.

It is interesting to me, as I recognize the frustration of a long term user expecting the product to be going somewhere at a reasonable speed. I have made similar remarks on completely different, unrelated, products over the years.

Coming in new to it, it feels almost complete. It could do with some more tweaks around text entry and organisation, but 'as is' is perfectly usable for me.

The ability to print out player hand outs is the other thing, I can see the usefulness of revealing information to players in real time. However, I suspect I will never use this. As for pushing data out to their devices, do people actually do this? Sitting in a room together and looking at their screens? Most of my group would probably need to learn how to use an iPad without hurting themselves first.

I'm not getting the content market either. Is this for system rules? What does it give over a clickable PDF? I can see it for house rules or cutting down long lists for settings, for example a reduced advantage/disadvantage list in GURPS that is allowed in the game, but these would be hand crafted anyway.

For actual modules? Couldn't these be done now as non-system specific with placeholders for the system specific parts, i.e. items, monsters, etc? These could be linked in from Hero Labs NPCs using your system of choice?

Oddly enough, it is Hero Lab I'm less enamored with.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.

Sam.

EightBitz February 14th, 2017 01:18 PM

Realm Works isn't designed to push out live updates to people at the table. It's designed for the GM to keep his world/adventure/campaign/rules organized, and to keep track of what's been revealed to players.

After the game session, the GM can sync to the cloud, and anyone with a player version can review all the revealed data between game sessions.

Alternatively, the GM can review revealed data to easily offer a recap at the next session.

As for printing, you can do that now. When LWD introduced the import/export function, the first thing I did was write a PowerShell script that transforms the XML output into HTML. You can take that HTML output and publish it on the web, print it to PDF or print it to your printer.

When you export, you have the option of exporting everything, only certain topics, or only player-revealed content. So that gives you pretty good flexibility to print session recaps or to configure how you want to compile and manage handouts.

After refining that to make it more functional and usable, the next thing I did was add an option for Word output. So now you can easily and directly edit your output in a fully functional word processor.

Right now, I have two users with reported issues, and I will do my best to address those issues, but I know that other people are using the script with no issues at all.

GamingSam February 14th, 2017 01:37 PM

Your explanation of the player update functionality makes more sense.

I did read the script thread, but not fully it seems. I had not realized i could export only certain parts and then let your script convert it, most useful.

Sam.

kbs666 February 14th, 2017 01:43 PM

I've used Scrivener and it's not bad. But it isn't RW. Nothing does what RW does. The RW linker puts RW in a class by itself.

Once you've used RW for a while and explored it the other features start to really become important, if some of them could use some work too. The relationship system is AFAIK unique to RW and is vital to how I run games now. The storyboard lets me model my plots visually.

And the fact is the folks at LWD are clearly trying to get the CM out so they can increase sales. This may not matter much to us but its how they keep the lights on. Which is how we get the new features that do matter to us. I say let them figure out how to sell and deliver the CM realms and then get back to improving RW before declaring the package beyond salvaging.

Silveras February 14th, 2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 244249)
Realm Works isn't designed to push out live updates to people at the table. It's designed for the GM to keep his world/adventure/campaign/rules organized, and to keep track of what's been revealed to players.

After the game session, the GM can sync to the cloud, and anyone with a player version can review all the revealed data between game sessions.

Alternatively, the GM can review revealed data to easily offer a recap at the next session.
.

If you think of this as a kind of private Wiki for a campaign, it makes more sense, I think.

BJ February 14th, 2017 07:50 PM

A private Wiki is a good description!

Bidmaron February 14th, 2017 08:09 PM

I prefer self-linking wiki.

BJ February 14th, 2017 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244295)
I prefer self-linking wiki.

Also good! :)

Bidmaron February 14th, 2017 09:17 PM

This is the way I described realmworks to Fantasy Grounds users:

Think of Realmworks as a self-building non-web wiki.
It can automatically generate most links between topics and will bring up resolution dialog as it makes links if there is a conflict.
You can also designate which information to reveal to players

Mystic Lemur February 14th, 2017 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244034)
So, I understand things can get behind, but you shouldn't give dates if you are that far behind schedule. If your customer's can't trust you, how long do you expect to keep them?

I've been following since the Kickstarter. Every date they've given has been their best estimate at the time. When you give a date, and then have to replace a key staff member, you're not going to meet that date. When you give a date, then discover a bug that requires a rework of the whole backend, you're not going to meet that date. I'm glad they stopped giving dates, because every time they did something broke :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipmunkPDX (Post 244034)
Anyone else jump ship, and if so what have you gone to? I just bought Scabard.com to try it out, but open to suggestions. (I know they don't provide a Content market either, but they don't keep promising to give you one... and would rather use something where I know what I am getting instead of a bunch of empty promises.)

Is Masterplan still a thing? That's what I used to use. It was designed for 4e, but was passable for other versions of D&D.

That said, by the time you get through the learning curve of another product the Content Market should be up and running. Might be a good way to pass the time :p :p

daplunk February 14th, 2017 11:24 PM

Masterplan is dead to my knowledge. The link doesn't go anywhere. I still have a copy though. Found it last night during a HDD clean-up. If RW was ever an infant i imagine it looked alot like MasterPlan :D

http://www.habitualindolence.net/masterplan/

tkarn February 14th, 2017 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bidmaron (Post 244295)
I prefer self-linking wiki.

This is a good description.

daplunk February 15th, 2017 12:21 AM

Wiki does it injustice IMO. Realm Works is so much more.

It's a dm binder full to the brim of every piece of information I have ever found that I thought might be useful that's is perfectly organised and goes out of its way to help me find the information I need when and where I need it. Realm Works is my OCD side. It organises everything to enable me to forget about organisation while I am running a session. It let's me let the story take control because I have faith that Realm Works is there backing me up when I need to get back on track quickly. It's got a much better memory than me which means my stories are lasting longer and becoming more details. It's the reason I will make the leap from pre made content to building a world of my own.

Greebo February 15th, 2017 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daplunk (Post 244315)
Wiki does it injustice IMO. Realm Works is so much more.

It's a dm binder full to the brim of every piece of information (...)

Having some issues with OCD myself, this decribes it quite well, daplunk. And that is my personal reason, why I did not jump ship. Even though Dark Lord Galen's problems sound just like my problems. And I hope those missing features will be implemented quite soonish after the opening of the CM.


:)


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