Starfinder and Pathfinder 2E in Herolab Classic?
 

Is there a company roadmap or timeline for when starfinder and pathfinder 2e will come to herolab classic?

I've had great success with my two main gaming groups in pathfinder 1e by having everyone purchase hero lab classic licenses. It really expedites character creation (something I usually have to do for about half the players who don't have system mastery, who are not tech savy, or who don't have the time to do this). Everyone in these groups are so used to the ease of use of Hero Lab that it would be an unthinkable amount of effort to maintain paper and pencil characters. At least one of my two groups wants to play starfinder, but no one wants HLO because it is unstable, doesn't work offline, and we all loathe subscription model services for products. Now that we're approaching a likely second season of SFS and the Pathfinder 2e playtest, I'd love to get my players into one or the other but we all want adoption in Hero Lab classic.

Since HLO is a non-starter for 100% of people I know with Hero Lab, is there any official plan 1 year after starfinder's HLO announcement/launch to bring these data packages to Hero Lab Classic? I guarantee 100% you'll have a minimum of 10 people just from my tables buying into it (please give me a product we can use so you can take my money!). Judging from these online forums you'll have a lot of your user base follow you into classic than those who are following you into HLO.

No roadmap so for HLC because this is not currently happening. I would plan that all future systems will be HLO only not classic.

If this changes I am sure LW will post the info all over...

So, in other words, don't hold your breath.

Realistically speaking, that dream is as dead as the tree of the Night Elves.

Development wise, Classic is pretty much on minimum life support.

Seems like HLO is as well after today.

It's more like "Screw you."

HLO needs to be optional and not the default. Not everyone is willing or able to pay a monthly fee. It's a bad business model and something that makes me like Starfinder and Pathfinder 2 less than I do now.

It makes me really not like Lone Wolf.

This kind of reminds me of the "edition wars".

I haven't switch over to HLO because of no ability to create custom material. I know it's coming and once it does, I'll sign up. I like both HLO and HLC but that is the hold up for me.

Until they solve the unsolvable problem of 'offline access' HLO isn't an option for me or my group (many of our sessions are at a literal cabin in the woods with no internet access, which is by design and not something anyone intends to change).

Even when we're playing locally, though -- strangely enough, we enjoy sitting at a table without a bunch of gadgets distracting us from each other, and just getting ourselves immersed in the game and in conversation and interacting with each other.

I guess I'll wait to see which happens first : HLC offering P2e, or SomeOtherSoftware doing so, and decide what to do then. Bummed that this delays my P2 playtesting a bit, but whatever, there's still plenty of PF1 content to go. :-)

It is not a screw you. Desktop apps like this are becoming relics. Browser based is the way everything is headed. They needed to make a choice on what is best for their company. I suspect that starfinder did very well for them so they went the same route for pf2. If they had a larger development staff they may have went both, but they seem to be limited there.

Change upsets some people and I am sure LWD knew there would be some attrition because of those who don’t like change.

No, no, no, don't victim-blame here.

This isn't "don't like change", this is "The new product LWD has created doesn't fit my needs as a consumer, and is therefore useless to me."

There is definitely a group of people who don’t like change. Just read the forums.
There are the very small group of people that live in the sticks and have crappy internet (not sure what they do to update hlc maybe drive into town?)
There are the people that can’t afford 25/yr but they shouldn’t be buying hlc then either.
There there are a few that, um, not sure what they don’t like.


HLO is more accessible too, usable on any device with a browser. Not sure if lwd is going to make apple’s 64 bit cutoff date so may lose Mac support for hlc too.

OK, fair, but it sounded like you were painting everyone with a broad brush.

Well you might well have "I have internet at home, but not where we play", or the parallel "We specifically try to keep people offline while playing so they can be engaged with each other and not be distracted. (and one can argue "police yourself" but in the modern era, it's easier to avoid the distractions when you simply don't already have the devices in your hand.

Well, if you buy HLC, you pay, what was it? $40? once. Now, I'll certainly contend that's not a good long-term business model for LWD (who should be more aggressive about charging for upgrades, etc., to keep a revenue stream there) but HLC is essentially a one-time purchase rather than an ongoing expense.

"more accessible" for you perhaps. Less accessible, as noted, for places with bad connectivity, etc. I know plenty of folks who've spent a lot of time playing D&D, PF, etc., on downtime in combat zones. Sketchy-as-hell internet access there.

If you don’t allow gadgets at the game table why are you upset with HLO? I mean you use HLO at home to make a character and then you print the character sheet. Exactly like you would for HLC.

I am totally confused based on your comments what you are upset about. Without emotion can you explain logically how HLO works different for your group than HLC would?

Well, as I mentioned upthread, we do from time to time go play at a remote cabin in the mountains (gaming weekend). Updating a character between sessions there (while using HLC) is painless. Updating a character between sessions there (with HLO) is impossible.

I can see how my referencing two different "plusses" for HLC (remote site as well as no-devices-at-the-table) might've been accidentally conflated.

Ok yeah leveling a character would be hard. Our group always levels between games so either version works for us.

Even applying various modifiers "on the fly" wouldn't be possible. This means manual work with the paper character sheet to update everything affected by a particular condition or other modifier.

Yeah but he said several time gadgets not allowed at the table. So they where already using paper sheet not HLC when gaming. Meaning the other features like spell adjustments and conditions where done manually.

Hence my question on if only useing 10% of the software anyways why did he care it was online only. :)

Sounds like one should create a few versions of the character (at level +1, +2, +3, etc) before heading to the cabin? Personally, I would love to also ban laptops & phones at the table but the #1 use of HL at the table is for the "conditions & buffs" as I don't want to figure all that out in real time.

Coming home from GenCon was a love/hate relationship with HLO for me. It went from:

"Ok, this is cool, making up a paladin on my phone as we drive home!"

to

"!&#$*!@ I65 and it's dead spots...I just hope traffic doesn't slow down to a crawl while in a Sprint dead zone..."

and back to

"Ok, this is cool, making up a paladin on my phone as we drive home!"

Another in my group did like the HLO for Starfinder events at GenCon as he ditched his huge/heavy laptop for an Android tablet using his phone as a hotspot... Although running that hotspot for 8+ hours is a major drain on the battery...

But it is not unsolvable. DnD Beyond has an app for offline use, for example. HTML5 offline storage may be another option.

It is a matter of development priorities. The number of people who will refuse to use HLO because of no offline storage, while not insignificant, is probably a minority and probably less than the number of people they can attack with online HTML5 compliant access that works on any device with a modern Web browser.

I would guess that if HLO is successful that they will eventually come up with a solution for off-line access.

I would imagine their main complication on that point would be converting lots of existing code from C or an adjacent language into Javascript. Not only is a lot of the basic philosophy dramatically different, but to do it right you need people deeply familiar in both languages, which is pretty rare these days. The server-driven approach has its downsides, but it's let them have a usable-on-all-devices service up and running in a fraction of the time I'd expect a full port to take.

Usable on all devices as long as the server is up. As we saw last weekend, there was a 3 hour outage on Saturday. In that case, it was usable on NO devices.

I think you are really not giving the customer base a fair shake. Change is not inherently good and not liking the change in direction doesn't make your critique baseless. The flip side of that coin is me calling you a hipster or a bandwagon jumper. Someone who always gets the newest iPhone even if it functionally worse/equivalent. So lets avoid the implicit ad hoc attacks/writ-offs by making up group identities.

Lets also avoid trying to assess the size of your bins. You say a small minority doesn't have reliable internet. I counter that I frequently play in areas with little or no reliable internet. This includes gaming conventions (where internet is available ~40% of the time, but even when available the bandwidth is quite limited - especially at large cons), gaming stores (no internet in the ones I frequent), or people's basements (most have internet, 20% are not reliable). Beyond the reliability issue, not everyone has endless internet data plans (via phone/tablet/at a private residence home). In Canada we pay some of the highest bills for mobile data and internet plans in the suite of 'classic' 1st world countries. As well sometimes to run my laptop all day for a convention I have to go into airplane mode/dim brightness because the table we play at isn't within 3m of an outlet to keep my device charged for 14 hours of play. My anecdotal experience does not really suggest whether the number of people experiencing this issue is large or small. What it does say is that my desire for a HLC product is honest. HLO just doesn't work for me and my players. Without some statistical data, your comment about this being a small subset of people is making some big assumptions which are not self evident.

The subscription model is also loathsome. It isn't just $25.00/year. It is $25.00/year plus content. There is no guarantee that that fee stays the same over any amount of time and at the end of the day I don't own any of that material/content because I can't use it offline or without an off site server. How many online game servers do you that get pulled 5-10 years later and now you can't play the game you bought? What happens if the company goes belly up or they decide not to support it in the future? Will the allocated data/server space be available forever like an offline model? No. It is functionally a worse product. HLC you pay once for material in perpetuity. In HLO you pay that same amount AND a subscription fee which still doesn't guarantee any 'in perpetuity' because the logic is on a server you will never get access to. In every sphere of my life I will seek out option B through Z before I pay into a subscription model. In 6 more years will you still support the company pivoting to a new business model if they increase subscription costs to $100.00/year (despite you sinking hundred of dollars in content costs already) and also move to mass loot box drops for new data packages (or is it only some 'newer' business models that are 'okay').

The next bin is your "some people just don't like it". The product is more expensive, for less functionality (both core critical functionality like offline play or STABLE online play), making a change no one asked for. These are solid arguments to stay away from the product. Just because you can't fathom someone not liking a product doesn't make it a gem.

And, before anyone jumps in with the "Android was the most requested feature" argument, there are non-networked, stand-alone apps for Android (Paizo's Adventure Card Game for Android, anyone?) that deal with datasets as large as HLC. Using the product on tablets was already possible with the iPad. Requesting Android as a supported platform does not necessitate an online-only application.

I'm not super-thrilled by the online-only model here, either, and darkops makes good points, the most concerning is (and I summarize) "What happens to our access to our purchases if Lone Wolf goes away or changes their business model?" I'm remaining very cautiously optimistic, but this fear is hanging out there.

But this question is exactly the same for HLC. HLC uses licensed servers to be usable and if those servers turn off because LW goes away you still lose access to HL.

Does HLC check the server every time it runs or only when it updates? I was under the impression only when it updates because I can use it without internet access.

True, but that will be easily remedied by a hack, I'm sure. Alternatively, LW could go away pushing out one final release that removes the licensing server from the picture, so you'd have access to "what you currently have" but no more.

Not an option they have in a model where they need to physically maintain the server the app runs on.

What if you buy a new computer?

It checks when anything major changes on your PC. Get a large Win10 update it checks. Change to much hardware it checks.

Meaning if LW servers go away you have X amount of time before HL falls into demo mode and cant be reactitvated.

And then Windows 2020 comes out and HL binary is not compatable and the software is dead.

I am very sorry but counting on HACKS to keep using software is stupid. I would much rather pay LW WAY more money and keep them in business then HOPE a hack comes out to keep my software working.

HLO uses sub 100k per hour for typical use according to a previous post by a LWD dev, which is quite small. Also I call BS about the bad internet at conventions. I heard about how horrible the internet access was at Gen Con, well I went there for the first time this year, never had a problem with connecting. I go to a local convention, and I do remember having internet issues there, but that was 10 years ago, haven't had any issues in the past 5 years or more. Maybe people are just remembering bad old experiences?

It's so stupid that people are, even today, playing Atari 2600 games, Commodore 64 games, literally decades after the compatible hardware was last manufactured.

Having the ability to keep software running is infinitely better than having zero capability to keep the software running.

Thats great for you? Here is my "in the last year" snapshot:
- Large Con - Fan Expo - had internet, but it wasn't usable due to bandwidth. It also wasn't equally great reception in every room.
- Medium Con - Con Bravo - no internet in our room, yes elsewhere.
- Small Con - Gryphcon and Gryphcon Shadow - No internet (on a university campus, so you have internet if you're a student)
- Small Con - Skycon and Skycon Lite - Hotel internet with bad connectivity that was unusable (2 mins to load google with a hotel sign in page and it kicked you out every 20-30 mins on a timer).
- Gaming Store 1 - Yes, has internet.
- Gaming Store 2 - no, has no internet is a dungeon that also kills cell reception.
- Gaming Store 3 - no internet.
- Boardgame Cafe/Bar - no internet (likely to change soon though)
- My House/Friends House 1 - Yes, has internet.
- Friends House 2 - Yes internet, but is down frequently enough to impact game ~1/month.
- Friends Condo Event Room - No internet and too far away from friend's router to use his.

Now maybe you guys can stop trivializing other's experience with internet reliability/connectivity. Only 3 of 14 places that I frequent in the last year have 'reliable internet'. For my two groups and I as well as people who I meet in some of those gaming stores HLO is a huge downgrade. Now instead of live/offline modifications I have to print content (waste of paper/ink - another cost) and calculate on the fly (something I paid for HLC to do to speed up sessions and remove excessive arithmetic from play). Why would I now give out $25.00/year for the downgrade?

My first post is a clear "PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY". HLC is an awesome, amazing, efficient, user friendly piece of software. It has stripped away the less enjoyable parts of pathfinder and accentuates the more fun ones (quick PC building without the need of deep game mastery, more game immersion vs. people stuck doing math, helps out GMs with encounters creation, etc.). I want that tradition to continue and I want it to be with Lone Wolf because they are a set of good people who should be rewarded for making a great product. However, I, like many on this forum or the wider web don't want HLO or a subscription model. We don't want it for VALID reasons and such a product is DOA/not fit-for-purpose. HLC is fit-for-purpose and we all want to keep throwing money at the company if you are willing to just give us Starfinder/2e in that format.

Thumbs up to this :-)

Well, being an android user for 7 years, I can understand the request. But, I'm not sure the balance has been taken into account of how many people lose capability when out of range from internet. Especially those same Android users who now find out that they need good access. Time will tell.

I'm surprised it wasn't readily obvious to anyone at GenCon, where the coverage is notoriously shit-tastic.

This was my first Gencon and my access to the internet was fine, I had heard it would be bad, but I had no issue. (using ATT). I didn't purchase it, but the convention sold wireless access for about $13 a day, no idea how good it is though.

I have been to GenCon several times and I had great LTE access via my phone and iPad. I watched some videos and other stuff without any issues and even did facetime with my wife.

I do admit I was never in any basements or anything but the standard GenCon rooms did not interfere with my connections.

At one point I even had to remote into a computer at my work place and fix some issues. Had no issues seeing a remote computers desktop and doing work. Pretty sure that requires more bandwidth than HLO does.

I am not saying people don't find "bad" areas but I have not been in a low cell coverage area in a long time in the US.

FWIW, the sagamore ballroom had great reception. Now, I did have games in crown plaza, homewood suites, and other rooms in IIC.

Most had decent bars, but I did have a few that made my phone go into roaming... Luckily I didn't need HLO then and their...

All I would say is, the chances of having good signal when I need it is good, but I'd be pretty pissed if I got to a game where I DID need and didn't have it. The real problem is you will never know until it's too late at a con...You are already their, what do you do then?

While I didn't try using HLO during Gen Con this year (I don't play Starfinder and didn't need to make a character for my one Playtest session) I can comment a bit on Internet in the ICC and close-in northern hotels. For reference, I have an older phone on T-Mobile, which I sometimes use for a hotspot for my Windows tablet.

I've had decent luck the last couple of years on the upstairs edges in the ICC; HLO users are probably getting helped quite a bit by the Paizo events being in the Sagamore.

I've never had good reception in the covered rooms on the first floor and this year was no exception. I've had mixed luck in recent years in the Exhibit Halls, but unfortunately I didn't use the Internet on my phone there this year.

Many of the hotels nowadays are giving free WiFi in the lobby areas. We were in the Westin this year and had free WiFi in the sleeping rooms as well. In previous years I have had no luck using phone-based internet during the day and early evening in my hotel room.

Many of you may find the new thread I just created of interest, as it seeks to provide some insight into our "vision" with HLOnline and touches on some of the comments and concerns made upthread. You'll find it here:
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=61062