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-   -   Hero Lab Online FAQ (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59075)

talsharien September 15th, 2017 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 (Post 255967)
I am bothered that they seem to intend to use the same data files which means the same scripting language. They have said they intend to improve the UI scripting but my issues with customizing HL were never with the UI and always with the scripting and the way the program handles data. The reason there are so many questions is to a great degree because HL does things in a weird way rather than in a way that makes sense to people used to using other programs with scripting and modding capabilities.

They should be using the opportunity to fix and improve this part of HL so that users and content producers can more easily use the product.

The inability to use the product offline will be a big deal. GenCon still has no WiFi. A lot of people will walk into GenCon next summer with HLO on their devices and suddenly not have access to their characters and havoc will reign.
I am with Shadow on this one, HL takes a little getting used to and at the beginning seems very daunting. Once you get your head around the way things work you can create almost anything custom by copying chunks of things that are already there. If I have to learn another language, thus rebuilding my large array of custom rules and mods I suspect that it would be the end of my relationship with what is a great piece of software.

Exmortis September 15th, 2017 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talsharien (Post 255986)
I am with Shadow on this one, HL takes a little getting used to and at the beginning seems very daunting. Once you get your head around the way things work you can create almost anything custom by copying chunks of things that are already there. If I have to learn another language, thus rebuilding my large array of custom rules and mods I suspect that it would be the end of my relationship with what is a great piece of software.
I guess this makes me lucky. I am not a coder, or a scripter, I have not the knack for it. However I have struggled through learning the scripting in HL, even with my wee brain. But having no foundation to build on really, put me in an advantage, thus what ever HL does seems....well...right lol.

Offline/Online is a personal issue, for me, it is a concern. I spend a lot of time at my lake, and many a hour spent inside looking at rain. Much of that time is used on RW/HL campaign work, and offline. No such connection there, so no offline HLO for me is a deal breaker. However, I also realize that gaming/working with internet is now the "norm", So its direction makes perfect sense. But LWD made a sweet choice here, HL/HLO share data sets, thus HL is your offline tool.

I don't understand the rhetoric, HL works, yeah its UI is old and clunky, but it works and works really well as a gaming tool. Better than any others I have used. So, either you stay with tested and true HL, or you move forward to HLO. What's the bid deal?

So even though I am not currently the market for HLO, no offline and LWD's inability to plan, or execute new projects being the two reasons, they left me with HL, and future dataset upgrades ensuring I remain a customer. As well anyone else that requires/wants/needs offline use.

kbs666 September 15th, 2017 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 255971)
Normally you have pretty smart ideas but this is just crazy talk.

So you want the several millions lines of scripts that are running under HL to be re-written? All the community packs all the files on home PCs and groups and all the 3PP addons and files. Not including all the lines of code that are written right now running all the games HL supports (d20, Pathfinder, 5e, MM, Shadowrun...) Its taken 10+ years for HL to have that code created by thousands of scripters. But you want that changed?

Sorry that is a plan that will sink LW. The scripting language works VERY well at what it does. If you actually spend time learning the language it has very good reasons for working the way it does. Its the VERY reason we all love HL is because of the very powerful language that Rob developed. Everyone here that likes HL needs to understand its because of the scripting language that you enjoy it. Its what drives 95% of what you see and get out of HL. You want to print a character sheet, or prepare a spell, or make something in the editor? Guess what you just touched something that was created with the HL scripting language.

They are correctly going to reuse all those millions lines of code already created as I guarantee that Starfinder started as a fork of Pathfinder. Then they made specific modifications for the UI and to improve some "legacy" ideas and features. But sense it started as a Fork of Pathfinder (as really Starfinder is only a little different from Pathfinder) and uses the HL scripting language means many will be able to jump right in and start coding Starfinder scripts. That is a positive and smart thing for LW to do.

Last point is the guys that are doing work for 3PP are paid on a very tight time schedule. Meaning you change the scripting language , all the time they have to re-learn, is time they will NOT make money. That is a bad thing as some are pretty dependent on the money they make from paid HL work.
That it has been done badly for a long time is even more reason to change it not more reason to continue doing things the bad way.

I'm a professional project manager and if I was confronted with taking over HL, without even seeing the codebase, the first thing I'd do is start someone looking at fixing the mess that is the scripting language and data input. The fact is it is excessively hard to make even simply changes to HL for no good reason.

I realize you've spent a great deal of time writing script under this system but consider all the people who have tried and given up. Just look at the forums here and the volume of traffic that is nothing but variants on "WTF why is this simple thing so hard?" For instance in Pathfinder it should be trivial for a GM to create a source that excludes the languages and deities of Golarion as well as to pick allowed races, class and archetypes for use in a custom campaign world for distribution to his players. I spent dozens of hours trying to make that happen and got essentially no where. As long as the present scripting system, I hate to even call it a language, remains in place I'll never try again. It's simply not worth the time and effort.

DeltaMasterMind September 15th, 2017 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 (Post 256024)
That it has been done badly for a long time is even more reason to change it not more reason to continue doing things the bad way.
Same goes for so many other programming languages. Sure perhaps in time the dev team could make a comprehensive GM tool that is as powerful as the editor, but doesn't make permanent changes to any files and yes we would all love to make everything we use perfect the way we want, yet sadly that is not being realistic. Granted alot of the code that is of issue for most is the interface when doing the changes you mentioned and it is possible to improve on that in the near future, but as far as the backend goes they have done well considering all the changes that had to be made to make it work with all the game systems that have been added over time.

kbs666 September 15th, 2017 07:42 PM
I'm not asking for a GM tool. I've got that.

I need a character manager. Specifically I need one that can be customized for my campaign with a minimum of time and hassle.

Ideally A gm should be able to define a settings file that is mostly just a list of settings for the game system in question. Allow this, don't that sort of thing. This is obviously possible in HL, see for example the PFS option. But doing it myself? I tried. After several attempts, a couple of which broke HL in ways that required reinstalls and asking questions and following examples I found here, I gave it up as not worth the time invested.

No tool should be that hard to use, that poorly documented and obscure. Fixing it when they switch platforms is the obvious answer. Carrying over an anchor around their necks is a bad idea.

EightBitz September 17th, 2017 05:29 PM
I have had a lot of frustrations with cusomizing Hero Lab. And sure, I wish it was simpler. A lot simpler. So many things I want to do in Hero Lab, I can do more easily in VB or PowerShell (for example). But those things are specific in scope.

Hero Lab is designed to accommodate any game system. GURPS, various iterations of D20, FATE, CoC, D&D 4E, Doctor Who, Savage Worlds, Cortex, and various others. It was designed to accommodate a large array of complex systems with different ways of determining different types of traits, powers, spells, conditions, penalties, effects ...

If they just focused on Pathfinder, or even just on D20, then yes. I would say it's too complex. But it's larger in scope than that.

Could it be simpler and easier to customize without losing its versatility and adaptability? Maybe. I don't know. But for anyone who's complaining, I invite you to list Hero Lab's closest competitors and compare and contrast.

eruvanna September 17th, 2017 07:27 PM
just curious on if there has been an update to "Late September" as yet. This week, next week, pushed into October?

talsharien September 17th, 2017 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eruvanna (Post 256096)
just curious on if there has been an update to "Late September" as yet. This week, next week, pushed into October?
Nothing has been mentioned as yet.

DeltaMasterMind September 18th, 2017 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 (Post 256031)
I'm not asking for a GM tool. I've got that.

I need a character manager. Specifically I need one that can be customized for my campaign with a minimum of time and hassle.

Ideally A gm should be able to define a settings file that is mostly just a list of settings for the game system in question. Allow this, don't that sort of thing. This is obviously possible in HL, see for example the PFS option. But doing it myself? I tried. After several attempts, a couple of which broke HL in ways that required reinstalls and asking questions and following examples I found here, I gave it up as not worth the time invested.

No tool should be that hard to use, that poorly documented and obscure. Fixing it when they switch platforms is the obvious answer. Carrying over an anchor around their necks is a bad idea.
Perhaps I am not understanding your point of view, but it a simple light it seems you wish a way to simply and quickly send/distribute/switch between portfolio source listings? Say a quick switch window storing your different configurations so you can easily set all the sources and rules designated to that "campaign/load out" file. Perhaps additionally make those load outs easily available via extract-able file?

nylanfs September 18th, 2017 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 255971)
Normally you have pretty smart ideas but this is just crazy talk.

So you want the several millions lines of scripts that are running under HL to be re-written? All the community packs all the files on home PCs and groups and all the 3PP addons and files. Not including all the lines of code that are written right now running all the games HL supports (d20, Pathfinder, 5e, MM, Shadowrun...) Its taken 10+ years for HL to have that code created by thousands of scripters. But you want that changed?

Sorry that is a plan that will sink LW. The scripting language works VERY well at what it does. If you actually spend time learning the language it has very good reasons for working the way it does. Its the VERY reason we all love HL is because of the very powerful language that Rob developed. Everyone here that likes HL needs to understand its because of the scripting language that you enjoy it. Its what drives 95% of what you see and get out of HL. You want to print a character sheet, or prepare a spell, or make something in the editor? Guess what you just touched something that was created with the HL scripting language.

They are correctly going to reuse all those millions lines of code already created as I guarantee that Starfinder started as a fork of Pathfinder. Then they made specific modifications for the UI and to improve some "legacy" ideas and features. But sense it started as a Fork of Pathfinder (as really Starfinder is only a little different from Pathfinder) and uses the HL scripting language means many will be able to jump right in and start coding Starfinder scripts. That is a positive and smart thing for LW to do.

Last point is the guys that are doing work for 3PP are paid on a very tight time schedule. Meaning you change the scripting language , all the time they have to re-learn, is time they will NOT make money. That is a bad thing as some are pretty dependent on the money they make from paid HL work.
^ This right here, you do NOT thow out the baby with the dishwater. Especially if you have non-programmer types that have learned the language enough to make contributions.

daplunk September 19th, 2017 10:33 PM
Ok the game-room is now hard-wired. Let's see what Hero Lab Online has to offer.

talsharien September 19th, 2017 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk (Post 256199)
Ok the game-room is now hard-wired. Let's see what Hero Lab Online has to offer.
I hope you mean your computers and not your players (images of 5 maniacal looking people sat around a table).

I have a couple of new players delaying any Hero Lab purchases at the moment in anticipation of what is to come :)

Mathias September 20th, 2017 07:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talsharien (Post 256200)
I have a couple of new players delaying any Hero Lab purchases at the moment in anticipation of what is to come :)
All that's come out in the last few months have been data packs, and all of those for game systems that won't be in HLO's initial release. So why delay purchasing those? Once those systems are available in HLO, you'll need to purchase the same pack to use that content in HLO as you would to use it in HLC.

kellhorn September 20th, 2017 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias (Post 256209)
All that's come out in the last few months have been data packs, and all of those for game systems that won't be in HLO's initial release. So why delay purchasing those? Once those systems are available in HLO, you'll need to purchase the same pack to use that content in HLO as you would to use it in HLC.
Since it's new players, I would guess they're putting off buying into hero lab at all instead of paying money for HLC now just to later have to pay extra money to migrate.

Steel_Wind September 20th, 2017 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias (Post 256209)
All that's come out in the last few months have been data packs, and all of those for game systems that won't be in HLO's initial release. So why delay purchasing those? Once those systems are available in HLO, you'll need to purchase the same pack to use that content in HLO as you would to use it in HLC.
Misunderstood response. Deleting.

Mathias September 20th, 2017 09:56 AM
After Steel Wind's post, I re-read mine, and realized I mis-phrased things - a more clear phrasing would have been "Once those systems are available in HLO, the same pack will let you use that content in HLO and HLC." My intent was to convey that purchasing the pack now would give you that content in HLO once that was available, and let you use that content in HLC in the meantime.

Steel_Wind September 20th, 2017 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias (Post 256223)
After Steel Wind's post, I re-read mine, and realized I mis-phrased things - a more clear phrasing would have been "Once those systems are available in HLO, the same pack will let you use that content in HLO and HLC." My intent was to convey that purchasing the pack now would give you that content in HLO once that was available, and let you use that content in HLC in the meantime.
Got it. People are edgy! And it appears that I'm one of those "people" this time :)

Parody September 20th, 2017 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias (Post 256223)
My intent was to convey that purchasing the pack now would give you that content in HLO once that was available, and let you use that content in HLC in the meantime.
Perhaps they don't want to pay the migration charge to use desktop Hero Lab content with Hero Lab Online, if Online is the way they want to go. (Kellhorn said this earlier.)

talsharien September 20th, 2017 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parody (Post 256227)
Perhaps they don't want to pay the migration charge to use desktop Hero Lab content with Hero Lab Online, if Online is the way they want to go. (Kellhorn said this earlier.)
Exactly, additionally they have come to me to advise and these people are my friends. Until I know precisely what is happening it is difficult to do that. The FAQ has answered a lot of questions but it is the potential for some of the online options which is attracting some of these players.

vardeman September 24th, 2017 12:32 PM
I just want character creation and tracking in HLC for Starfinder. I don't NEED shared resources or anything else that requires the online model. I'll be looking elsewhere for Starfinder support until/if/when it becomes available for HLC. That is all.

Golo September 29th, 2017 11:26 AM
Its the end of the month, any more news on HLO Beta?

Thanks!

kellhorn September 29th, 2017 01:04 PM
As is usual with developers, take all date estimates with roughly a pound of salt.

BJ September 29th, 2017 02:46 PM
You should see news announcements early next week!

BoomerET September 30th, 2017 05:55 PM
@kellhorn,

You take that back, I resemble that remark.

Whenever my boss or another department asks me for a time estimate, I take the amount of time I think it will take me, double it and add three weeks.

This has the added benefit of instead of people being mad that you can't keep your promises, it gives you days, sometime weeks of screwing off and playing when you should be slinging code.

Dave

kellhorn September 30th, 2017 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerET (Post 256664)
@kellhorn,

You take that back, I resemble that remark.

Whenever my boss or another department asks me for a time estimate, I take the amount of time I think it will take me, double it and add three weeks.

This has the added benefit of instead of people being mad that you can't keep your promises, it gives you days, sometime weeks of screwing off and playing when you should be slinging code.

Dave
I just multiply mine by 1.5 for my boss. Then wind up having half the team send me questions or things that need fixed with a higher priority that they don't trust anybody else to do. The joys of being an infrastructure developer working from translations of specifications. I think I actually managed to get one project done in the time I expected in the last few months. Of course I was at work until 2 a.m... Everyone should be patient with the Lone Wolf developers. You don't want to use a product made from 2 am code.

talsharien October 6th, 2017 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ (Post 256610)
You should see news announcements early next week!
I suspect that we are now late next week, any updates?

kenderbard October 8th, 2017 12:12 AM
I'm a little uncomfortable that the open beta sign up didn't seem to star out my password when I signed up for it. Are our passwords not going to be encrypted?

EightBitz October 8th, 2017 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenderbard (Post 257087)
I'm a little uncomfortable that the open beta sign up didn't seem to star out my password when I signed up for it. Are our passwords not going to be encrypted?
I can't speak specifically to the back end, but in general, I can tell you that what you see on your screen is completely independent of whether or not there's encryption.

Masking your password with stars is a purely visual effect, typically done to prevent people around you from seeing your password, wandering eyes that might be looking over your shoulder or sitting next to you.

Encryption is done during transmission and/or storage of data.

The two processes are completely independent of each other. You can have either one without the other.

Don't ever rely on password masking to be a reliable sign that your password is encrypted.

ShadowChemosh October 8th, 2017 08:20 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz (Post 257092)
I can't speak specifically to the back end, but in general, I can tell you that what you see on your screen is completely independent of whether or not there's encryption.

Masking your password with stars is a purely visual effect, typically done to prevent people around you from seeing your password, wandering eyes that might be looking over your shoulder or sitting next to you.

Encryption is done during transmission and/or storage of data.

The two processes are completely independent of each other. You can have either one without the other.

Don't ever rely on password masking to be a reliable sign that your password is encrypted.
Yep all 100% true.

In this case the important part is to make sure that you have a verified HTTPS connection. Firefox and chrome give nice warnings about being on unsecured servers and submitting information.

In this case look for a green Lock next to the URL in Firefox, Chrome or Safari. And well if your using Edge/Explore first solution is download Firefox or Chrome. :D

Attachment 5590

kenderbard October 8th, 2017 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh (Post 257100)
Yep all 100% true.

In this case the important part is to make sure that you have a verified HTTPS connection. Firefox and chrome give nice warnings about being on unsecured servers and submitting information.

In this case look for a green Lock next to the URL in Firefox, Chrome or Safari. And well if your using Edge/Explore first solution is download Firefox or Chrome. :D

Attachment 5590
Ah okay, thank you both!

NeoEvaX October 8th, 2017 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenderbard (Post 257087)
I'm a little uncomfortable that the open beta sign up didn't seem to star out my password when I signed up for it. Are our passwords not going to be encrypted?
Late last night I tweeted at them letting them know. I got a reply. So they are aware. Mostly its just a feeling of security, like people have said. Still its been a long time since I typed my password in and saw it on the page. My heart skipped a beat till I remembered it's not really too big a deal.

Either way I hope they fix it. Good habit to have.

Valdacil October 8th, 2017 01:14 PM
I read through the FAQ and signed up for the beta last night. If they deliver on the promised features it could be everything I was hoping for HLC in the beginning (regarding group play features, combat manger, party inventory, etc). I did still have 2 questions that I didn't see directly answered in the FAQ:

1) Will HLO still have the same customization ability for house rules via the editor as HLC? Ideally, will existing HLC .1st and .user files still work with HLO? I would hate to have to reproduce the Gestalt pack and numerous Homebrew customizations on another platform.

2) HLO will use account based login, but the FAQ also said it would still have support for secondary licenses. Will the secondary license users each have their own login (ie. 1 login per primary or secondary license) or will secondary license users share the primary license login account?

I am looking forward to seeing what HLO has to offer and can't wait to get some hands on time.

ShadowChemosh October 8th, 2017 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdacil (Post 257116)
1) Will HLO still have the same customization ability for house rules via the editor as HLC? Ideally, will existing HLC .1st and .user files still work with HLO? I would hate to have to reproduce the Gestalt pack and numerous Homebrew customizations on another platform.
The editor is coming for HLO but its going to be "after" the initial release of HLO & Starfinder. The underlying HL script is not changing in anyway except for UI scripts (which few people in the community do). As far I understand only UI scripts will not work in HLO. This will affect the Pathfinder Community Pack. Hopefully I get up to speed with the new UI script logic quickly. On the good side it could also mean some new community features. ;)

For other game systems the Things you have scripted into .user/.1st files will work without modifications once the game system goes to HLO.

Turjan December 5th, 2017 05:30 PM
Any news on a Pathfinder for HLO release date?

Aaron December 6th, 2017 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turjan (Post 259881)
Any news on a Pathfinder for HLO release date?
No new news, I am afraid. We still plan to address other systems once Starfinder is out and stable, and as that is still in Beta, so it will be a while.

jlong05 December 12th, 2017 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron (Post 259897)
No new news, I am afraid. We still plan to address other systems once Starfinder is out and stable, and as that is still in Beta, so it will be a while.
Any chance for a Christmas expanded beta invite? I am still waiting and would love to get my hands on it and play with it and how it works with Realmworks.

Jlong05

daplunk December 12th, 2017 10:45 PM
It doesn't work with Realm Works yet. It's just player creation and management.

jlong05 December 13th, 2017 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk (Post 260111)
It doesn't work with Realm Works yet. It's just player creation and management.
No time like the present to start looking at that though. ;)

Honestly, I just want to get my hands into it to see how the player stuff works also. I have a gaming group looking to actually start the AP for Starfinder in January and having a tool in place with access would allow me to test my players and the tool at the same time.

I know I haven't seen anything in the Realmworks forums for Starfinder, but I have started converting a Pathfinder Realm to Starfinder. Its slow going, but making headway. Unless someone yells that they already did that legwork....

jlong05

Nightfox December 19th, 2017 02:48 PM
I have a question about the custom content for HLO, and I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but after 8 searches, and reading 30 pages of forum posts, I'm ready to just come out at ask it again.

I do not doubt that an editor for custom content will be implemented... eventually (just like custom calendars for RW). And as one who spent years copy/pasting coding to slowly learn, I'd be glad if I did not have to learn a new coding language. However the question comes down to all the content we have already done and if/how it will be added to our HLO account. Will we be able to upload/download our data and por files or are we going to have to recreate any/all content we want to utilize in both HLC and HLO?

Dami December 19th, 2017 10:21 PM
@Nightfox: They have stated that coding for HLO will work pretty much the same way as it does in Classic.
How it will be added? No idea - but there's no reason for it to be any different than it is now. I don't think that LW have answers that specific themselves yet.


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