BUg: Range modifiers on character sheet

[JoethebigItalianguy]

When you increase the range on powers with extras, the increased range doesn't appear on the printed character sheet. It only shows the powers at their base range

[Colen]

JoethebigItalianguy wrote:
>
>
> When you increase the range on powers with extras, the increased range
> doesn't appear on the printed character sheet. It only shows the powers
> at their base range


I can't reproduce this bug. What powers / extras do you have to add to
make it occur?


--
Colen McAlister, colen@wolflair.com
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development

[Grayson7]

I'm not the original poster but I think I know what he is talking about. I made the power, Blast and assigned 4 ranks. It gave me a range of 40 feet, which is correct because one range increment is rank times 10 feet. However, when I added the feat, Improved Range, it still listed the power's range as 40 feet when it should have listed it as 100 feet (rank times 25 feet) instead of (rank times 10 feet). That assumes that you intended for the software to actually reflect the change caused by adding the feat.

It should be noted that I am using the demo version (waiting for Ultimate Power dataset) so I could not print it out; however, the range is shown underneath the power as well as in the print preview as only 40 feet in spite of the Improved Range feat.

[thorfin]

It will state the base range, and then in parenthesis later on, it will say "Improved Range (x4)" and so on.

[Grayson7]

Yeah, I get that. However, that parenthetical number only shows what the rank is multiplied by to get the new range increment, it does not show the new range increment itself. I would think that it should show the new range increment, in other words the base range with the Improved Range factored in. The lack of this creates issues in other areas. For example if you click on the "Special" tab, under "Attacks," it will not show the proper range of a power that has the Improved Range feat, it still shows the base range. This is also the same case for the "Attacks" summary on the left column of the character sheet.

[krathen]

In other words, you want it to do the math for you because of record keeping issues, it seems like the application works as Colen is expecting it too, thus why he didn't find a "bug" it's more you'd like him to change how it handles it. (Which honestly makes sense to me, I don't want to have to do that math all the time)

[LinusMundane]

I also like when you take ranks of Leaping and your jump is still calculated to be like 13 ft.

[Colen]

Grayson7 wrote:
>
>
> I'm not the original poster but I think I know what he is talking about.
> I made the power, Blast and assigned 4 ranks. It gave me a rank of 40
> feet, which is correct because one range increment is rank times 10
> feet. However, when I added the feat, Improved Range, it still listed
> the power's range as 40 feet when it should have listed it as 100 feet
> (rank times 25 feet) instead of (rank times 10 feet). That assumes that
> you intended for the software to actually reflect the change caused by
> adding the feat.


Good point, I'll see if I can get this added. Thanks!


--
Colen McAlister, colen@wolflair.com
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development

[Colen]

LinusMundane wrote:
>
>
> I also like when you take ranks of Leaping and your jump is still
> calculated to be like 13 ft.


Hmm, I thought I'd handled that... I guess not. I'll try and get it fixed.


--
Colen McAlister, colen@wolflair.com
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Grayson7 wrote:
>
>
> I'm not the original poster but I think I know what he is talking about.
> I made the power, Blast and assigned 4 ranks. It gave me a rank of 40
> feet, which is correct because one range increment is rank times 10
> feet. However, when I added the feat, Improved Range, it still listed
> the power's range as 40 feet when it should have listed it as 100 feet
> (rank times 25 feet) instead of (rank times 10 feet). That assumes that
> you intended for the software to actually reflect the change caused by
> adding the feat.


Good point, I'll see if I can get this added. Thanks!


--
Colen McAlister, colen@wolflair.com
Chief Engineer, Lone Wolf Development

Hmm, I thought I had rememberd this being discussed before. Apologies for now having it in two threads.

PF: Improved Range and PF: Progression, Increase Range.

Found a problem with how these two PFs are working with each other and the Power: Blast. Have not checked it against other powers but I suspect it would happen with them as well.

First, when using Progression, Increase Range which affects the MAXIMUM range (and it would be nice if that were written as Ranged, 30ft/max 300ft) isn't following the correct formula: Max range = (R.I. x 10 x Progression value)

You'll see in the example below that there's something odd going on with Improved Range as well.

Example, a rank 7 Blast with a single level of each of the two PFs (x2 on the chart) should have a Range Increment of 140 ft. and a max range of 1,400 ft. but the printout has "Improved Range (175 ft incr) (Standard(Active) - Ranged, 140ft. - Instant)"

If you buy two levels of each PF (x5 on the chart) to reflect realistic air-to-air combat range. Instead of a R.I. of 350 ft (with a max of 17,500 ft) one gets "Improved Range (350 ft incr) (Standard(Active) - Ranged, 350ft. - Instant)"

Even without the PFs, it would be nice to have the change made to: Ranged, R.I. ft. / Max value ft. on the sheet.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer.

[Duggan]

Actually, with one rank of each, you should have a range increment of 7*25=175 ft and a maximum range of 70*25 = 1750 ft (allowing for 10 range increments again). The two feats don't interact. ^_^ Which is good, really, since it would probably be a pain to set up the interactions if they did.

Try this on for size.

[Duggan]

It probably should not be allowed if one also has the reduced range drawback, but that's a bit beyond me at this point. Probably some way of making each unavailable if the other is present...

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Actually, with one rank of each, you should have a range increment of 7*25=175 ft and a maximum range of 70*25 = 1750 ft (allowing for 10 range increments again). The two feats don't interact. ^_^ Which is good, really, since it would probably be a pain to set up the interactions if they did.

Try this on for size.

**Scratching head** one level of Improved Range is x2 on the Time/Range Chart. So it should be rank (7) x 10 feet x 2 = 140 feet for the Range Increment or have I missed an Errata somewhere?

Two levels of I.R. would make it 7 x 10 x 5 = 350 ft Rng Incr.

Now, that would normally give 3,500 ft as max range and if you add a level of Progression, Increased Range that kicks the max range up to 7,000 feet and if it had been two levels of Prog, Incr Rng the max range would've been 17,500 ft.

So the two power feats do interact as one handles the basic unit of measurement called Range Increment and the other power feat (Progression, Increased Range) is a multiplier to the normal max range one gets. In other words.....it's P,IR value of 2 or 5 or 10 or 25 or 50, etc. x (Range Increment x 10)

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

P.S., as I'm noted elsewhere and Colen has already corrected in the software, the Power Drawback: Reduced Range (in UP, per the Errata) doesn't adjust the number of Range Increments anymore. It adjusts the multiplier which you use to get maximum range. Instead of the normal power rank x 100, for -1 pt max range is power rank x 50 and for -2 pts the max range is power rank x 25. So, in my humble opinion, I agree that the Power Drawback: Reduced Range shouldn't be allowed on the same power that has the Power Feat: Progress, Increased Range and probably also not on a power that has the Power Feat: Improved Range. lol Definitely not on a power that has both of those Power Feats. :-)

[Duggan]

Ah, but it's the 10 that you're increasing on the time and value chart, which goes from 10 to 25.

And, as per Ultimate Power page 13, increasing your range increment does not increase your maximum range. If you only take 1 ranks of Improved range and none of progression, you'd have Blast 7 [Improved Range (range increment 175 ft)] with maximum range (7*10*10 = 700 ft), and only 4 range increments. Add one rank of progression on there and your range increment is still 175 ft, but your maximum range becomes 7*10*25 = 1750 ft and you again have 10 range increments. If you only had Progression (Range), you'd have the standard range increment of 70 ft with a maximum range of 1750 ft and you'd have 25 range increments (although, at -2 per increment, your odds of hitting anything become really slim after 15 or so).

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Ah, but it's the 10 that you're increasing on the time and value chart, which goes from 10 to 25.

And, as per Ultimate Power page 13, increasing your range increment does not increase your maximum range. If you only take 1 ranks of Improved range and none of progression, you'd have Blast 7 [Improved Range (range increment 175 ft)] with maximum range (7*10*10 = 700 ft), and only 4 range increments. Add one rank of progression on there and your range increment is still 175 ft, but your maximum range becomes 7*10*25 = 1750 ft and you again have 10 range increments. If you only had Progression (Range), you'd have the standard range increment of 70 ft with a maximum range of 1750 ft and you'd have 25 range increments (although, at -2 per increment, your odds of hitting anything become really slim after 15 or so).

Completely agree that PF: Improved Range only affects the Range Increment. Never thought about it making the x10 into x25 for these Power Feat....I assumed you started at x1 on the Time and Value Chart as additional multiplier one layered onto the base formulas for distances.

Nigel Fogg, aka the Wayfarer

[Colen]

I'm reading the above thread and my head is spinning. Can someone summarize the discussion for a poor programmer here? :)

[Duggan]

Ah. Basically, the confusion is over the fact that the powers list a "range" at the front of the power that's basically the first range increment (rank x 10 ft). Adding improved range shows the change in increment in the feat, but doesn't affect that first value. Adding Progression, Increase Range doubles that first value.

So, the following output is seen for Blast 10:
No Feats
Blast 10: Range 100ft, DC 25

Improved Range
Blast 10: Range 100 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment)

Progression (range)
Blast 10: Range 200ft, DC 25, Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

Both feats
Blast 10: Range 200 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment), Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

That first range is either meant to be the range increment, in which case it's updating with the wrong feat, or the maximum range, in which case it needs to be multiplied by 10, or 25 when the Progression, Increase Range feat is taken once. Going from 10 to 25 can be seen in UP on page 13, FWIW.

The .user file I posted doesn't fix that first value, but it adds a maximum range to the feat. :) That will give you a formula to paste in whether you added it to the feat, or make that first "range" listed be the maximum range.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Ah. Basically, the confusion is over the fact that the powers list a "range" at the front of the power that's basically the first range increment (rank x 10 ft). Adding improved range shows the change in increment in the feat, but doesn't affect that first value. Adding Progression, Increase Range doubles that first value.

So, the following output is seen for Blast 10:
No Feats
Blast 10: Range 100ft, DC 25

Improved Range
Blast 10: Range 100 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment)

Progression (range)
Blast 10: Range 200ft, DC 25, Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

Both feats
Blast 10: Range 200 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment), Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

That first range is either meant to be the range increment, in which case it's updating with the wrong feat, or the maximum range, in which case it needs to be multiplied by 10, or 25 when the Progression, Increase Range feat is taken once. Going from 10 to 25 can be seen in UP on page 13, FWIW.

The .user file I posted doesn't fix that first value, but it adds a maximum range to the feat. :) That will give you a formula to paste in whether you added it to the feat, or make that first "range" listed be the maximum range.

Almost perfect Duggan.

You are right that I'm not sure if the sheet display of "range x feet" is supposed to be the range increment or the max range.

However, max range should be, per page 69 of M&M: "...and a maximum range of 10 increments..." so I'm not clear on where the Prog, Improve Range (max range x 2) comes in or what exactly it means. lol

Happy Fourth of July everyone. :)

[Duggan]

However, max range should be, per page 69 of M&M: "...and a maximum range of 10 increments..." so I'm not clear on where the Prog, Improve Range (max range x 2) comes in or what exactly it means.
{nods} Progression increases the number of increments. According to UP, it does so from 10 to 25 (one application) to 50 (two applications) and so on. Currently, the feat in Hero Lab simply goes up the time and value chart, going from to (max range x 2) to (max range x 5) and so one. The first step should actually be x2.5 (going from 10 to 25) and it would be nice to actually have numbers for the maximum range, as is done for the range increments.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

{nods} Progression increases the number of increments. According to UP, it does so from 10 to 25 (one application) to 50 (two applications) and so on. Currently, the feat in Hero Lab simply goes up the time and value chart, going from to (max range x 2) to (max range x 5) and so one. The first step should actually be x2.5 (going from 10 to 25) and it would be nice to actually have numbers for the maximum range, as is done for the range increments.

Absolutely agree about the idea of needing both values to appear and I repeat my earlier suggestion that onscreen & on the printed sheet it should appear one time in the power's description. For example, a regular, no frills, Rank 10 Blast would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 100ft - Max Range 1,000 ft - Instant).

However, you are slightly off Duggan in your comment: the PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94 - left column) affects the range increment.

PF: Progression, Increase Range changes the max range from the normal (Rank x 100) to (Rank x 250) or (Rank x 500), etc. depending on how much Progression is bought.

Anyway, the written output should reflect the values generated by the Power Drawback: Reduced Range or either Power Feat affecting the correct thing (increment or max range) & the text of PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94 last sentence) indicates to me that there ISN'T a synergy of both PFs being on the same power. Each PF is an independent modifier to the increment and the maximum. Naturally I think the Power Drawback: Reduced Range should be mutually exclusive with the PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94) as both deal with the range increment.

For example, a Rank 10 Blast with PF: Improved Range 3 and PF: Prog, Increased Range 1 would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 1,000ft - Max Range 2,500 ft - Instant). Yes, I am aware this particular combination means you'd only be getting far less than the normal 10 range increments. :)

Conversly, a Rank 10 Blast with PF: Improved Range 2 and PF: Prog, Increased Range 4 would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 500ft - Max Range 25,000 ft - Instant) which is way more than 10 range increments. :) Lotsa luck hitting anything at Max Range though with all those culmulative -2 modifiers per range increment. ;-P

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer
:)

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Just to raise this old specter again, hopefully in time to get things fixed before the latest Beta version goes live..... ;)

This time I'm attaching a PDF to demonstrate, please read the Notes on each power.

I've included a thrown weapon as it has special rules and is doing the calculation correctly and I like how the information is shown on the sheet. :)

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

[Duggan]

:) I resubmitted the .user file seen on the second page to Colen, and he said that there's a good chance of it making it in (as well as the code to make the areas account for increased and decreased area feats). Contrary to your proposed sheet, though, it shows the maximum range of (2) to be 500 ft as per Ultimate Power's description of what Improved Range and Progression (Increased Range) do. Similarly, it shows for (3) that there's a maximum range of 2500 ft. I don't remember if I have it showing the multiupler as well.

Increased Range increases the maximum range independent of range increments attained by Improved Range, which fits with your July 3rd posting, but not your most recent PDF sheet.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

:) I resubmitted the .user file seen on the second page to Colen, and he said that there's a good chance of it making it in (as well as the code to make the areas account for increased and decreased area feats). Contrary to your proposed sheet, though, it shows the maximum range of (2) to be 500 ft as per Ultimate Power's description of what Improved Range and Progression (Increased Range) do. Similarly, it shows for (3) that there's a maximum range of 2500 ft. I don't remember if I have it showing the multiupler as well.

Increased Range increases the maximum range independent of range increments attained by Improved Range, which fits with your July 3rd posting, but not your most recent PDF sheet.

You know, pages 13 & 94 of U.P. clearly spell out that the two types of range modification DO NOT interlock and yet that is so counter-intuitive that my brain just refuses to let that stick. LOL

Thanks Duggan for the reminder.

I still think it's important to display on the sheet & screen BOTH the range increment AND the maximum range of a power.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

[Duggan]

^_^ One increases maximum range. The other increases the size of increments for accuracy. Simple enough...

Ah. Well, my fix only shows the maximum range when Progression (Range) is added. And it still adds the wrong addendum on output, the 250 ft when Progression (Range) is added. But that's something inherent to Ranged attacks, so I can't fix that yet. :)

Colen? Any chance we could fix it up to always show a range increment/maximum range? It would mean removing my fix and instead making the changes within the Ranged text display.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

^_^ One increases maximum range. The other increases the size of increments for accuracy. Simple enough...

Ah. Well, my fix only shows the maximum range when Progression (Range) is added. And it still adds the wrong addendum on output, the 250 ft when Progression (Range) is added. But that's something inherent to Ranged attacks, so I can't fix that yet. :)

Colen? Any chance we could fix it up to always show a range increment/maximum range? It would mean removing my fix and instead making the changes within the Ranged text display.

I know they each affect a differnt aspect of range, :) , it's just that one should impact the other....nested mathematics and all that. :p

I see you have Progress, Increased Range 2 (max range x5 [2500]). Max range is normally "rank x 100" (U.P. page 13) so two steps up the Time & Prog Chart would make max range "rank x 500". I mean, I know you're saying it's five times the "normal" max range for a rank 5 Blast but don't you think it would add clarity to use "rank x 250 [1250]" or "rank x 500 [2500]" or "rank x 1000 [5000]" and thus be consistent with the text in book & the Feat's description?

I still think the notation used when a power is "thrown" might be the way to go, in the name of consistency, for all powers: (Range: 100 ft., incr 20 ft.) with the nuts & bolts of how it's arrived at being annotated with the relevant Power Feat/Extra/Flaw/Drawback.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer