RW Shop Problem

[Vampyre]

Hey all,

I was reading the blog post about the shop... And I'm a bit disappointed...

If I understood it right, if I want to buy something Paizo, I need to have bought the book before in their store right ?

Well, what if I have that book, but not from Paizo ? I think that is worth an explanation since I'm not talking about piracy.

I speak natively french, and live in Europe. So far, I've been able to translate anything in RW so that I could use it in my own language. Pathfinder, in my country (no, it's not France :p), is translated by a third party. So basically, what I need to do is :

- either buy the full bundle so that I have an english version of the same book in french to get access to its content on the marketplace and translate it all by myself... (in that case, why buy it at all ?)
or
- either buy full price third party if it ever makes it translated, which I have my doubts.

So... It seems it all is a great opportunity for RW... but...

Did you guys thought about any non english user of your product ? We play each in our language, but we are penalised for not being english native...

Just my two cents there...

[daplunk]

This is a paizo policy not a Realm Works policy. While it's important to let the devs here know how you feel you should head over to the Paizo forums because that's where you will find the guys who have enforced this decision on people.

[Galymyr]

Here's the link to the discussion on the Paizo forums. Vic has said they are preparing a blog entry on this topic.


http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u60u&page=2?New-Paizo-policy

[Silveras]

Vampyre, in addition to what daplunk said, it is also important to note that the requirement is the PDF version.. not a physical book. The purchasers of the physical book in English are also voicing their concerns if they did not also purchase the PDF.

[Toblakai]

I have read a lot of complaining about the PDF policy, but I have heard no one come up with a better solution... Currently I can't think of a better solution that does the following:

Pays Paizo for the IP
Pays RW for the data entry

They could have went the FG way and just charge full print retail price for the content. But instead you pay PDF price plus a smaller RW price which adds up to about the print price, so not only do you get the RW content but you get a PDF too. Win Win over FG and 5e.

There is also the added benefit if you already own the PDF you have a discounted price.

[daplunk]

Yeah I've commented else where that this is really interesting. It is an actual attempt to do something that everyone has always asked for.

"If we have already bought the content we should not have to pay full price again for it just to use it in a different tool"

This is an actual attempt to fix that. They just can't do it with physical books.

I'm interesting from a business perspective. It's been fascinating to watch a real attempt to give the people what they want generate such negative commentary.

[Toblakai]

Yeah I've commented else where that this is really interesting. It is an actual attempt to do something that everyone has always asked for.

"If we have already bought the content we should not have to pay full price again for it just to use it in a different tool"

This is an actual attempt to fix that. They just can't do it with physical books.

I'm interesting from a business perspective. It's been fascinating to watch a real attempt to give the people what they want generate such negative commentary.

Maybe everyone they all were expecting just the RW price with no Paizo IP needing to be paid for. Or were hoping those pirated PDF's counted :rolleyes:

[Merion]

Maybe everyone they all were expecting just the RW price with no Paizo IP needing to be paid for.

This.

[AEIOU]

I think it's the double-dip by Paizo that caught people by surprise. They sell the PDF and they get licensing money from LWD. It just feels like the pharma pricing issues are spreading like a cancer through the rest of our lives....

It's a double-edged sword because if you don't buy it, they have no choice but to change the mode; or they just stop supporting it altogether.... Alas, the suits will choose no support and blame the platform for the failure rather than their greed.

[Toblakai]

I think it's the double-dip by Paizo that caught people by surprise. They sell the PDF and they get licensing money from LWD. It just feels like the pharma pricing issues are spreading like a cancer through the rest of our lives....

It's a double-edged sword because if you don't buy it, they have no choice but to change the mode; or they just stop supporting it altogether.... Alas, the suits will choose no support and blame the platform for the failure rather than their greed.

There is no double-dip by Paizo, if people think that then they are just woefully ignorant. There is no greed by Paizo, I really don't understand how people can think this, it's just not logical.

[AEIOU]

if people think that then they are just woefully ignorant.

@Toblakia: Thank you for the personal insult. I respectfully disagree and would like to politely ask that you not attack people on the forums. Happy Valentine's Day!

[Toblakai]

@Toblakia: Thank you for the personal insult. I respectfully disagree and would like to politely ask that you not attack people on the forums. Happy Valentine's Day!

Sorry, wasn't meant as a personal insult, I just find no way that anyone could possibly think that Paizo is trying to double dip here, to me it looks like they did the best they could to not do that.

[AEIOU]

Could Paizo have chosen NOT including a requirement to own the PDF in the same way that other third-party publishers have? Absolutely. If this was their best, I think they could have tried harder.

I think we may use gaming material differently. I use bits and pieces of material from other sources in my games rather than run the material as published. I also play 5e now so PF mechanics are less useful to me. For these reasons, I do not need a PDF for any PF material I purchase as I am going to be lifting pieces out for my own use. Realmworks makes this easy to do. The added cost for PDFs that will never be opened is, again IMNSHO, a blatant and completely unnecessary double-dip to profit twice.

I also totally understand that I'm not the audience Paizo needs to make happy....

[daplunk]

But in that case would you not expect to pay full price for the content still? Very similar to how Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds works now?

I always had the full expectation that I would be paying similar costs to the price of a hardbound book. That's the license fee, production fee and distribution fee included in the cost.

Now Paizo comes along...

If you already own the content (in pdf form) you are now only paying the production fee and distribution fee.

If I was a Paizo player I would no longer be buying hard-cover books. Ever. Just the PDF. Purchase it once and then rejoice in the cheaper costs for getting the content in the digital tools I use.

I honestly see this as a really positive move. I've read the arguments both for and against why people who have bought the books can't get the discount. Personally I think anyone who has purchased a hardcover book from Paizo directly should get the discount but there must be a reason they chose not to do this.

Let's be honest, if they could think of a way to get hardback books included in this arrangement it would be an incredible thing. It would be something that would set the benchmark in the market.

WOTC certainly don't follow this model. You buy the books and pay the license fee, production fee and distribution fee all in the cost of the book. A year later FG comes out with content and you pay even more for the same content again. This is double dipping. WOTC have been paid twice by the same person for the license fee for the same content.

But again, that's where I will stop purchasing hardcover books.

Ultimately what really sucks about all of this... is hardcover books are in for a shit time. Physical stores are going to need to adapt very quickly because digital tools are here to stay in the RPG world and it is going to severely impact the way people purchase and use content IMO.

[MNBlockHead]

If it only annoys those that have already bought the Paizo material, it won't matter much in the long run. It's like those folks on the various forums complaining when WoTC releases a new edition and stops publishing stuff for the prior edition. If the publishers made business decisions based on that noise, they would go out of business.

My initial kneejerk reaction was "but I don't want a PDF, I don't like PDFs, and PDFs are the truely outdated media. I want material in RW that I don't have to spend the time to enter and I want nice print books." After reading posts here and in the Paizo forums, I understand better why Paizo did what it did. It initially looks bad, but it works. Price wise it is about the same cost, probably less than if they just priced in the IP in RW's price.

The only people that should be upset are FLGS and overseas, non-English speakers. With this pricing, unless you ONLY use pen and paper, I see no reason why you would ever shop for Paizo material at a brick-and-mortar shop. As for non-English material, from what I've read, they are not sold through the Paizo on-line shop and shipping may make buying from Paizo directly untenable in many countries.

For those who feel they spent a lot of money on print material and are not getting any love, well, that is not uncommon. Businesses generally are not staying in business by giving away new stuff to people just because they bought other stuff. They can give deals when you buy direct before they don't need to share as much of the revenue and they are able to track customers better.

All in all, after spending time reading more about this, it seems to be a reasonable and relatively pro-consumer decision. If charging the same or more as the cost of the books to get Fantasy Ground content didn't hurt WoTC, I highly doubt that Paizo's tying PDF purchases to other digital-content purchases is going to hurt them.

All and all, I try to keep the big picture in mind. If it is too expensive, then I don't buy it. This isn't food, water, or medicine. These are games. There are plenty of alternative games that are also fun to play that are much less expensive.

[Maidhc O Casain]

Never mind - changed my mind about jumping in...

[MNBlockHead]

Ultimately what really sucks about all of this... is hardcover books are in for a shit time. Physical stores are going to need to adapt very quickly because digital tools are here to stay in the RPG world and it is going to severely impact the way people purchase and use content IMO.

Forcing physical stores to adapt is not a bad thing. And many are. You hear about closures, but they are not doing a poorly as book stores. I used to feel like I had to buy my RPG books from a local gaming store. But I've got over my guilt of buying from Amazon or, better, directly from the publisher.

When it comes to books, the FLGS is a middleman that adds little value. Most people do not need to leaf through a book to decide whether they want it. There are blogs, YouTube reviews, and so forth.

Fantasy Flight Games has a great shop near me and they do it right. They have a huge amount of play area. They have a large library of board games you and borrow to play there. Their shop is smaller than other and focuses on board games.

They offer good food and drink, including beer. The space is open, not cramped, and is clean. Especially in the winter you see families coming in to get lunch, do some gaming, maybe buy a new game or expansion.

They host multiple tables for Pathfinder and other games and they have enough space for events.

To me, it is close to ideal for what I want out of game store. The only thing I would add would be an easier way to reserve table (have X number of table set aside for walk-ins but allow on-line reservation for the rest) and table service.

If you are a FLGS depending on sales of Paizo and WoTC books, you have a poor business model IMO.

[Toblakai]

Could Paizo have chosen NOT including a requirement to own the PDF in the same way that other third-party publishers have? Absolutely. If this was their best, I think they could have tried harder.

How does Paizo get paid for their content then? Provide a method that pays both LWD and Paizo without the PDF purchase.

[Bidmaron]

Seriously, I wish you would quit your griping. No amount of bitching here is going to change things. Go to Paizo if you want to gripe.

We get that you are pissed. Now please be quiet here.

I am a Paizo superscriber and I am delighted at the model they have. I am in the minority but i am personally glad, as I have all the hardbacks and pdfs. I am delighted they took into account loyal supporters.

There is no possible way they could give credit for hard copy purchasers as stores don't maintain auditable records of purchasers (and the purchaser may have sold it)

[rob]

Alright, folks. The conjecture STOPS NOW!

NONE of you know any of the facts in this. It is ALL guesswork and assumption. And I'm not able to publicly comment on any of it.

I wholly get that you have differing opinions. You are entitled to those opinions. But do NOT wield those opinions as weapons against anyone else and expect to change their minds. You are peeing into the wind here.

It is also highly inappropriate - and a violation of forum rules - to cast aspersions or denigrate any other forum member. Some of you have flirted with and crossed that line, and it stops now.

So this thread is now closed, and I'm withdrawing the last few comments that are contributing nothing constructive and only ruffling more feathers.

Everybody take a deep breath. Stop and think before you post.

WARNING! If ANYONE attempts to RESUME this same argument in another thread, you WILL be given a timeout. Please take this debate offline, as it's not constructive in any way here.

Thanks!!