True names and revealed status

[kbs666]

I'm working on my next video and was messing around with all the stuff you can do in the manage names dialogue and found some rather strange thing.

Once a true name is revealed it does not become the name of the topic if shown in player view. As a matter of fact the true name and alternative names do not appear to be connected to the topic at all in player view even if they are revealed.

Further if an alternative name is revealed but the base name is not then no snippets can be revealed in the topic.

This leads to some rather difficult naming issues. Consider someone building a Middle Earth realm. A certain ranger could conceivably have these names: Strider, Aragorn, Elessar Telcontar, Estel, Evyinatar and Thorongil.

Certainly depending on the intended POV of the realm almost any of those could be the topics name and several others, due to quirks of play, could be the name the players came to know a scruffy ranger by. But the first time the topic is revealed to the players the gig is up.

[rob]

The first item sounds like a bug. The Player View code has to jump through a bunch of special hoops, so it's possible that it's not retrieving the name appropriately. I'll flag this to the team, although I'm stunned it hasn't been reported previously, so there may more complexity involved here.

The "public name" is a fundamental part of each topic. Every topic HAS to have a name that can be displayed within the UI everywhere. So the "public name" serves that purpose.

Allowing an arbitrary name to be designated as the ONLY visible name for a topic creates lots of complications within the underlying engine. More importantly, it creates complications for users within the UI. Everything to do with naming now becomes fiddly and confusing in order to handle the extremely rare case like you cited here. And it just doesn't make sense to make everyone pay that price for the special case if there is a reasonable, alternative solution that can be employed.

Fortunately, there IS a simple solution you can employ in this situation. And you've already done it in your post! :)

The public name of this scruffy ranger can simply be "Scruffy Ranger". Then all the other names become aliases (alternate names) for him, which can all be revealed independently of one another. You can also then designate which one to use as the "true name".

Is this ideal? Nope. But it works quite reasonably.

I've got this issue on our "special cases to improve handling" list, but it will entail a meaningful amount of work to deal with in the underlying engine, plus even more work to solve how to cleanly and smoothly handle this within the UI. So it's competing for resources against all the other things on our ridiculously long "wanted features" list.

Note! For all the armchair quarterbacks out there, it's not overly complicated to simply add this to the UI. What IS complicated is handling all the special situations that can arise in conjunction with this in the UI, and that makes solving this properly a non-trivial effort. As veteran software developers will attest, things that seem hard on the surface are often easy to solve, while things that seem easy are often quite hard. And there's also the old adage that devil is in the details. There are lots of those involved with this situation.

Hope this helps!

[kbs666]

But none of the alternative names are revealed in player view no matter what I do.

For instance create a person as described named "scruffy ranger" then give him a true name "Aragorn" and an alias of "Strider" then try revealing the names in any combination you like and look at the topic in player view.

[ShadowChemosh]

The public name of this scruffy ranger can simply be "Scruffy Ranger". Then all the other names become aliases (alternate names) for him, which can all be revealed independently of one another. You can also then designate which one to use as the "true name".

In my proof of concept testing of names I found this issue myself. Once I thought about it made sense why it works this way and how 'True' name should work. I do agree that "how" it works does not immediately jump out at you when first using names in RW. :(


Note! For all the armchair quarterbacks out there, it's not overly complicated to simply add this to the UI. What IS complicated is handling all the special situations that can arise in conjunction with this in the UI, and that makes solving this properly a non-trivial effort. As veteran software developers will attest, things that seem hard on the surface are often easy to solve, while things that seem easy are often quite hard. And there's also the old adage that devil is in the details. There are lots of those involved with this situation.
You should just make this your signature so its on EVERY single post you do. :D :)

[ShadowChemosh]

For instance create a person as described named "scruffy ranger" then give him a true name "Aragorn" and an alias of "Strider" then try revealing the names in any combination you like and look at the topic in player view.
This to "me" is a feature not a bug. I can "pre-reveal" alternative names before the game or during setup. But the players can NOT actually view them until I reveal the topic itself.

This is the exactly the same for the snippets. When I setup a room in a dungeon I "pre-reveal" sections of the room that I know the players will see right away. But they are not really revealed until I reveal the main topic name.

Means its usually "ONE" button click during a game instead of many...

[kbs666]

This to "me" is a feature not a bug. I can "pre-reveal" alternative names before the game or during setup. But the players can NOT actually view them until I reveal the topic itself.

This is the exactly the same for the snippets. When I setup a room in a dungeon I "pre-reveal" sections of the room that I know the players will see right away. But they are not really revealed until I reveal the main topic name.

Means its usually "ONE" button click during a game instead of many...

But even when you reveal the public name the alias is not revealed in the player view. Try it out just to make sure it is not something specific to my installation.

[ShadowChemosh]

But even when you reveal the public name the alias is not revealed in the player view. Try it out just to make sure it is not something specific to my installation.
Not near RW to test right now. When you say Player View are you looking on the "left" side values? Or in a snippet of text that has a link to the alias? Cause I think from memory only the text link would then be shown to players. I don't think it shows in the left side "list" of names. Or its the fact that I always "hide" alias names in that list that I never noticed the issue. ;) :D

[kbs666]

My Player View doesn't have a left side tree list at all. Never has. Is there supposed to be one? All my Player View has is various windows corresponding to the topics I have designated for showing in Player View which I can drag around and resize. There is an empty left hand pane but it has nothing in it and nothing I do populates it.

[ShadowChemosh]

My Player View doesn't have a left side tree list at all. Never has. Is there supposed to be one? All my Player View has is various windows corresponding to the topics I have designated for showing in Player View which I can drag around and resize. There is an empty left hand pane but it has nothing in it and nothing I do populates it.
My confusion. I thought you meant when in "Player View Mode" of RW not the 2nd screen you actually show the players.

I was talking about how a Player using RW would see the data not the 2nd monitor. I rarely ever show text on the 2nd screen just images and maps. I honestly don't know how the 2nd screen is meant to display the data.... :(

[DaFranker]

But even when you reveal the public name the alias is not revealed in the player view. Try it out just to make sure it is not something specific to my installation.

I remember noticing that there was nowhere to see revealed aliases in the PlayerView a few months ago, but I don't really use it in practice so I dismissed it as me just not knowing how at the time. Thinking back on it, I've never seen any revealed aliases appear in the PlayerView.

[Vargr]

A very quick test confirms kbs666 finding re. revealed alternative names not being shown in players' view.

Haven't had time to test the other stuff.

[rob]

Just to clarify how things should be working, revealed ALTERNATE names will NEVER appear in place of the public name. Only the TRUE name should have that behavior.

This is how the names behave everywhere OUTSIDE of Player View. We've verified this is a bug within Player View and it's being fixed.

Once the true name is revealed, it should be swapped with the public name everywhere. The assumption is that the players now know the true name and should reasonably see everything with that name instead of the less obvious public name.

Alternate names are simply that - alternate names. They will appear in the navigation pane whenever you configure them to be shown. They will also appear beneath the public or true name at the top of the content pane, subject to available space. Those are the only places where the alternates will appear at the present time.

Hope this helps!

[Vargr]

It does (helps, that is). :-)

[kbs666]

Just to clarify how things should be working, revealed ALTERNATE names will NEVER appear in place of the public name. Only the TRUE name should have that behavior.

This is how the names behave everywhere OUTSIDE of Player View. We've verified this is a bug within Player View and it's being fixed.

Once the true name is revealed, it should be swapped with the public name everywhere. The assumption is that the players now know the true name and should reasonably see everything with that name instead of the less obvious public name.

Alternate names are simply that - alternate names. They will appear in the navigation pane whenever you configure them to be shown. They will also appear beneath the public or true name at the top of the content pane, subject to available space. Those are the only places where the alternates will appear at the present time.

Hope this helps!
To be clear, it is your intention that non true name alternate names should never appear in player view at all?

[rob]

To be clear, it is your intention that non true name alternate names should never appear in player view at all?

They won't show up as the primary name for the topic shown at the very top. That's going to be either the public name or true name. The list of revealed aliases SHOULD be showing up beneath the primary name, just like they do within the content pane. Their omission is also a bug, although it's not quite as easy to resolve that one. We've got the primary name fixed for a release later today. It's unclear whether we'll have the display of aliases fixed in time for that release.

P.S. We learned about these bugs less than 24 hours ago. The hamsters can only run so fast in their wheels. :)

[kbs666]

They won't show up as the primary name for the topic shown at the very top. That's going to be either the public name or true name. The list of revealed aliases SHOULD be showing up beneath the primary name, just like they do within the content pane. Their omission is also a bug, although it's not quite as easy to resolve that one. We've got the primary name fixed for a release later today. It's unclear whether we'll have the display of aliases fixed in time for that release.

P.S. We learned about these bugs less than 24 hours ago. The hamsters can only run so fast in their wheels. :)
No, rush. I'm just trying to make sure I understand exactly what to expect from the name system now that I clearly had some misconceptions the first time around.

[Bidmaron]

Kudos kbs in discovering the problem though!

[rob]

FYI, the issue with displaying all the revealed aliases will NOT be in the release coming soon tonight. We've got it mostly solved, but it wasn't solid when we had to shift gears to focus on getting the release out the door.

[kbs666]

Thanks for the quick turn around.

Please do not think I was ever complaining. I was simply trying to make sure I was right on how the feature was supposed to work and had a bug that was not unique to my installation.

Once the patch is up tomorrow and I've had time to mess around with it I'll do the video I intended to do on the name system which I hope everyone will enjoy. Personally I think the feature has improved considerably over the last few patches, this bug notwithstanding.