How long, Really?

[Madmaxneo]

I do not know about anyone else but this content market thing has been taking a long time to get done, in fact it is taking to long. I am going to Gencon but at this point I want to avoid the Realm Works booth because I do not want to see yet another preview of features that have not been implemented yet as I have done for the "last two years".

Yes, it was two years ago that I first purchased Realm Works and then went to Gencon and saw the demo for the calendar and was really excited for it and other features. In fact they mentioned it would be implemented soon and then it got thrown to the back burner. They also talked about the content market but it did not seem that important at the time.

I know your answer is probably going to be "soon" or you are not sure and can't even give an estimate. As it stands right now that makes me think it will be more than a year plus till we see the content market and who knows how long till we see the calendar feature.

[Dubya]

The calendar is what made RW stand out for me as well. This is the guesstimate that we were given by Rob back on February 3rd 2015:

"It’s highly unlikely that calendars will be available before the end of this year. It’s much more likely that they will finally be available in the first half of 2016. That’s a complete GUESS, but it’s based on what I know about our current timelines and projections, as well as the survey results. At this point, I can’t do anything better than this guess, and there are lots of things that could occur between now and then that could shift things around some."

Who knows?

[Greebo]

I can understand their approach, since the ability to sell modules instantly creates additional revenue.
And I might even buy one or two generic supplements, someday.

But still, in my eyes the long-time-ago-promised abilities to create custom calendars and to share my own data within my realms is way more usefull than getting commercial datas to me / us. And it would do wonders for building and sustaining a stable user base.

[MaxSupernova]

You've been waiting two whole years?





Pfft. Amateur.

[Madmaxneo]

You've been waiting two whole years?





Pfft. Amateur.

LOL...yeah that is when "I got sucked in". That may be a harsh statement but that is essentially how I feel. I really like RW but there are some things that are really needed that are still missing that were talked about at least 2 years ago that I know of.

BTW, did the player edition ever get the option to add player summaries or notes? I remember hearing about that and is one of the things that got my players interested. Though TBH I have to really prod (cattle prod) them to even glance at the updates I do.....lol.

[DMG]

With the way I use RW, it's been stagnant from my point of view for a couple of years. I rarely even use it now.

Yes, I know there has been lots going on & the dev team are working hard on it. There have been massive changes behind the scenes. But from my usage it hasn't changed much at all.

[Mithosaurion]

It is a sad state of affairs, but I am holding out hope. But you are correct on many points. I have a hard time recommending it to others when I get asked about it. I do and I warn them about the long wait for updates, but I feel bad about doing so...

[Asmo]

I'm also a bit disappointed. I want to use the campaign i'm dm'ing for friends with my kids, but there is no way to copy it.
Tempted to look for alternatives.

[wurzel]

Tempted to look for alternatives.

I think many people here are looking for alternatives. But as far as I know there are none. Not yet.

[ruhar]

I supported the Kickstarter and found the calendar appealing also so I and other Kickstarter supporters have been disappointed for a very long time. But probably not as long as the creators who had to put it on the back burner. Yes, I'm disappointed that other abilities got higher priority (did the players REALLY have to be included in the survey that skewed the priorities? ;-) but you have to remember that they are basically inventing a wheel when a wheel has never been invented. Despite not having the calendar that I've waited for I have found the program a very valuable tool for me as a DM. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, or would that be burn the castle with the dragon? At least they work with us and keep us informed. Try to get Microsoft to do that. LMAO Also remember that they are a very, very small company which means they don't have a lot of people to work on all of the different desired features not to mention they didn't initially understand the complexity of what they wanted to accomplish and the time frame needed to successfully finish a desired feature in order to give us a better ETA.

With all that said that doesn't mean I'm not going to @$^%$& on occasion when something doesn't go my way. And sometimes they'll get frustrated with our #$^*% and will @!^& back at us. I just try to keep everything I said above in mind when I want to &%#!*. Also, think back two, three, five years ago on goals you had set. Did you accomplish all of them? On time? I'm just saying...

Madmaxneo, I hope you stop by their booth this weekend and talk to them. But don't do it with a chip on your shoulder, go to talk with them about the product; ask questions about desired features and what happened. Also talk to them about their desires for the program and your desires. While you're at it ask them about their kids, their last gaming adventure, and how GenCon is going for them.

[Vargr]

I, too, long for all the features that we do not yet have.

And while longing I sometimes forget all that I have already gotten.

I have finally found a system that allows me to work on my world and my campaign in an easy way without having to worry too much about structure (RW handles it by itself more or less). It is actually fun developing my world.

In short, people tend to forget that RW does what no other software does, it does it well - in fact so well that people forget it and just focus on the things that it does not do - yet.

So I am with ruhar on this one. Be careful not letting the frustration get the better of you (I have to remind myself of that too once in a while).

[MNBlockHead]

I'm also a bit disappointed. I want to use the campaign i'm dm'ing for friends with my kids, but there is no way to copy it.
Tempted to look for alternatives.

I'm constantly looking at software that will enhance my game prep and play. There just isn't anything out there that meets my needs like RW.

[Pollution]

Deleted

[Dark Lord Galen]

............ (did the players REALLY have to be included in the survey that skewed the priorities? ;-) ..........
To Quote Rob's Quote...
"THIS" ... or perhaps the now more infamous "Soon"

As for myself, I have repeatedly asked this same question and it still amazes that LW can't see the error in having Players casting a vote on a tool primarily designed for DMs... If there was no "realm" created in RW there would be NO NEED for a "players version".

And to then hide behind a flawed polling with .. "well that's what the "public voted"" is simply without good merit.

............Also, think back two, three, five years ago on goals you had set. Did you accomplish all of them? On time? I'm just saying...

Rob Quote #2.. the end user simply don't understand the complexities of what it takes.. that's why we can't convey when it will happen.:rolleyes:

Again, many have repeatedly asked this, with the LW response, "hey we are working hard..."
Great, glad they are... but there comes a time when the customer voice should be addressed with REAL deliverables.

As MNB and others have said, I too am always on the lookout for new softwares to improve my gaming table's experience... that is what led me to RW to begin with, via HeroLab... Both, unfortunately with all their collective warts, still have the possibility of being the standard.

My apologies to Liz, that I would resist the urge to post on the RW side in critique. But since this thread and the fact that the SECOND QUARTER of 2016 has now came and went (no surprise), I don't think "early 2016" is in the picture any longer and even her departure for greener fields has caused me to pick up the banner once more.

[AEIOU]

I'm hoping the next survey captures GM vs player and whether person has purchased. And I'd really like each question on the survey to have a number of "widgets" assigned to it, where a widget is a vague idea of how much time/effort each survey question is estimated to be. And by widgets, I mean just an abstract difficulty or timeframe to give us a sense of what to expect. Perhaps give each person a number of widget points to make final choices with.

It would be nice to group questions by how many months/years it will take to accomplish them based on current estimates.

It would be fantastic to group questions by contingencies -- kinda like skill trees in games. Show the big end goals and what it'll take to get there. It's easier to swallow a long development time if we can see that in order to implement X Lonewolf needs to first do A through W.

I have to wonder whether the voting would have fallen the way it did if people understood how much time was necessary to accomplish what was voted for. I bet knowing the length of time would impact the next voting to create more realistic expectations.

[EightBitz]

I'm constantly looking at software that will enhance my game prep and play. There just isn't anything out there that meets my needs like RW.

That depends on what features you want. I want the ability to print what I write. There are many things out there that meet my needs better than RW.

Right now, I'm using RW to run RotRL, but I already have that in printed form. But for the stuff I create, I will use anything else. Word, OneNote, Scrivener, Evernote. Because, hey, look, I can print!

[MNBlockHead]

That depends on what features you want. I want the ability to print what I write. There are many things out there that meet my needs better than RW.

Right now, I'm using RW to run RotRL, but I already have that in printed form. But for the stuff I create, I will use anything else. Word, OneNote, Scrivener, Evernote. Because, hey, look, I can print!

Well, sure. If I *needed* to print or *needed* to export, I wouldn't be using RW. I run a single campaign from RW, for a game I run from my home, and it has served me well. After HL started to support 5e, the RW&HL combo have been a great set of tools for me. I don't know that I would want to DM without them.

I am a heavy user of Evernote for both business and personal use, including storing various gaming material. I've looked at Aeon Timeline, Onenote, Wikis, Google Drive, etc. and I like RW because I don't have to juggle multiple tools. All the stuff for my campaign are in one place.

I thought I needed calendars, and almost asked for a refund during the money-back period after realizing the demo video I saw was showing a feature not yet released. Calendars have become much less important than I had wanted them to be in my campaign because of this, but I've gotten over it. Calendars are now a nice to have than a must have and I'm more interested in export and print, but I'm still putting hours of time in RW every week because nothing else comes close to meeting my needs for campaign management.

[MNBlockHead]

Yikes, AEIOU... that would be cool...but the amount of time to design and digest responses from such a survey would seem to be enough to develop some new features instead.

If I were RW, I would keep it simple. I would have a separate questionnaire for each edition, player's and GM's. The first question on both should be:

1. Do you own a copy of RW?

If not, I would have some questions asking why they have not bought it. What features are keeping them from buying it? Give some options based on commonly cited reasons, but allow respondents to fill in their own answers.

I would expect the number one reason for most GMs not buying RW will be lack of printing and exporting capabilities. Inability to reuse/copy realms would likely be number 3. For players, it would almost certainly be "my GM doesn't use it." Nobody will buy the players edition if they don't participate in a came where their GM is using it. If the survey answers bear this out then GM responses and requests should be weighted accordingly.

If you do own a copy, next question:

2. Do you actively use RW?

If not, why?

Again, I'll bet you'll see the same reasons those who have not purchased the game will give for not buying it. Printing, export, my DM doesn't use it.

I'm hoping the next survey captures GM vs player and whether person has purchased. And I'd really like each question on the survey to have a number of "widgets" assigned to it, where a widget is a vague idea of how much time/effort each survey question is estimated to be. And by widgets, I mean just an abstract difficulty or timeframe to give us a sense of what to expect. Perhaps give each person a number of widget points to make final choices with.

It would be nice to group questions by how many months/years it will take to accomplish them based on current estimates.

It would be fantastic to group questions by contingencies -- kinda like skill trees in games. Show the big end goals and what it'll take to get there. It's easier to swallow a long development time if we can see that in order to implement X Lonewolf needs to first do A through W.

I have to wonder whether the voting would have fallen the way it did if people understood how much time was necessary to accomplish what was voted for. I bet knowing the length of time would impact the next voting to create more realistic expectations.

[AEIOU]

Heck, Liz could easily whip up those survey items before she had her morning coffee. I'm sure our new person could do it in a day or two. :)

[Pollution]

Deleted

[AEIOU]

I love how the paying customer has been and continues to be less important than the potential customer for LWD. All of the release information should have been posted here. No, all of the release information should have been posted here already and updated regularly. It shouldn't have to come 2nd or 3rd hand from a convention that a small minority of gamers attend or have any real interest in.

[Asmo]

Phase 4 (my guess is our custom stuff): by March
Phase 5: ???


So, IF we're lucky (those dates have been pushed back before) i might be able to copy my own realm in march next year? If so, that makes me sad.

Oh, and i agree with AEIOU, as a working man with 2 kids, i dont have the spare time to fly from Europe to attend a conference to get future info on RW. Heck, i even dont have the time to rewrite all my campaign info to another realm so i can dm them simultaneously.
Luckily, cash is not an problem, so i will be starting to look for alternatives (as said before). March (or worse) is too far away for me. Too bad...

Had to get this off my chest.

Sorry for bad grammar (Netherlands here).

[rob]

Folks, just to be clear, I was doing a seminar here at GenCon, and I outlined a few very basic elements of the plan - BUT NOTHING SPECIFIC. And, more importantly, if you harken back to the June update that I posted here on these very forums (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=56007) (and that's stickied at the top of every page), you'll find the following paragraph...

As I laid out in the late-April update, the Content Market itself will be rolled out in multiple stages. Please do not expect everything to suddenly become available in one mammoth release, since that’s not going to happen. We’ll be introducing assorted Content Market capabilities incrementally, starting with more basic things and then adding more complexity. This way, we can deploy everything in manageable chunks and ensure that everything works well in Phase #1 before progressing to Phase #2, and so on. We’ll similarly be starting with a small number of content options for purchase, then adding more over time.

So, aside from saying that we're now targeting October to start everything, there was NOTHING NEW. All I did was reiterate to everyone there what has already been communicated here, both in April and in June. And @pollution drew his own GUESSES based on that information. He even clearly stated that they were predictions in his post.

I'll accept criticism about things we've done poorly or wrong, but I take exception when we're villified for something that is utterly untrue. And this one really has no basis in fact.

Edit: The seminar was targeted to existing users only, as it focused on advanced tips & tricks, which included some info about features we've added that are being leveraged by the Content Market. All of these features have already been fully disclosed in the release notes and updates I've provided here on the forums.

[eponette]

Thanks a lot Rob for the info.

Will it be a youtube video of the seminar?

[Greebo]

Thanks for keeping us informed and for the clarification, Rob.

Like eponette I would like to watch a video of the seminar.


As I stated before, I can understand your approach on the content market since you have to generate revenue with the things you do.
If I remember correctly, Joe stated you focus on bringing content to users first. Therefore I assume the ability to share user created content and to copy things from one of my realms to another to appear in a later stage of the content market roll-out.

But, like Asmo and several others, I personally would prefer a greater focus on enabling us to do things. Like copying our realms and sharing them. Our creating custom calendars.

[DMG]

Look out Rob, the natives are getting restless... :)

[Grey Mage]

+1 hoping the GenCon vids get links posted so we can catch up...

[rob]

I had every intention of recording the seminar. Unfortunately, I found out 3 minutes before the seminar started that someone else had assumed I was going to repeat last year's seminar (I wasn't) and decided that we therefore didn't need to record it. So there was no mic for recording any audio, and there was no way to fix it at that point. This communication breakdown resulted from having someone completely new filling in to coordinate everything this year in the wake of Liz's departure, so I can make sure this doesn't happen again, but it doesn't solve the problem for this year. :(

I'll need to figure out something. I'm wiped after an exhausting - but successful and productive - weekend. And there are a zillion things to deal with upon returning home tomorrow. So I'm not sure what the "something" will be - yet.

[rob]

But, like Asmo and several others, I personally would prefer a greater focus on enabling us to do things. Like copying our realms and sharing them. Our creating custom calendars.

If only we could. This is something that I've indicated in the previous, big updates, but that clearly isn't making sense to everyone. I provided some examples in the seminar that seemingly worked, and it appears I'll need to explain things in more detail to everyone here. That's not feasible for a little bit, since it's already 3am here in Indy, I'm on an airplane all tomorrow, and there's a huge pile of work awaiting me upon return. :(

As I indicated in my previous post, I'll figure something out. I'm just not exactly sure how yet...

[ruhar]

...it's already 3am here in Indy, I'm on an airplane all tomorrow, and there's a huge pile of work awaiting me upon return. :(

As I indicated in my previous post, I'll figure something out. I'm just not exactly sure how yet...

Rob, five years from now RW will be completed, except for occasional add ons, and everyone will be singing your praises. ;) :D

[Viking2054]

Rob, five years from now RW will be completed, except for occasional add ons, and everyone will be singing your praises. ;) :D

I know your kidding, but the problem is that the RPG community is a big moving target. Let's not mention the high percentage of whiners and cry babies in our community... ;)

Although I hope things will move a bit faster after the content market is complete through all of its roll out stages, I don't see some of the things I want making it into RW in the next 18 months.

I've been patiently taking a wait and see approach for myself. However, when asked, I freely explain the benefits and the hindrances as I see them.
I then recommend a wait until sometime after the content market before thinking about purchasing RW.

[Pollution]

Deleted

[Greebo]

Rob, five years from now RW will be completed, except for occasional add ons, and everyone will be singing your praises. ;) :D

Right you are.

[MNBlockHead]

I've been patiently taking a wait and see approach for myself. However, when asked, I freely explain the benefits and the hindrances as I see them.
I then recommend a wait until sometime after the content market before thinking about purchasing RW.

Depends on the person you are talking to, no? I would discuss what they are looking for in a campaign-management tool—the must-haves. I explain why I use and rely on in, but that for certain use cases it may not be the right tool.

[EightBitz]

Depends on the person you are talking to, no? I would discuss what they are looking for in a campaign-management tool—the must-haves. I explain why I use and rely on in, but that for certain use cases it may not be the right tool.

This is what I do, too. I will inform people of specific strengths and weaknesses then leave them to draw their own overall conclusions.

[Asmo]

Buy a copy, download it, save it as (rename it as) Adult Group, download it again (free) and save it for Kid Group.

So there's that.



Good to hear, but how about: write your own campaign and save as Friends and save as Kids...

I can understand why things go the way they are and have respect for LW but the whole save as thingy is very common these days.

[Viking2054]

Depends on the person you are talking to, no? I would discuss what they are looking for in a campaign-management tool—the must-haves. I explain why I use and rely on in, but that for certain use cases it may not be the right tool.

The few people I've talked to about RW that I know personally, get my honest opinion. I don't take their credit card away from them or force them not to buy. I just recommend waiting. After all, we've been waiting on the content market for how long now? That survey was what two or three years ago?

When I purchased RW there were a few key features I was looking for that RW advertised at the time. So I purchased it. But some of those key features were put not on the back burner, but the way way back burner (walk 10 miles before you find the right back burner). Do I have buyers remorse, not really. But I don't have recommendation fever for RW to other GM's either.

[chaoscowboy]

Huh, just bought Realmworks. I may already be regretting it.

[ShadowChemosh]

Huh, just bought Realmworks. I may already be regretting it.
You have 60 days from purchase to ask LW for your money back. My advice is to take that time and actually TRY the software. Just because some people are whiny about stuff does not mean the software is not fantastic. Most likely you will find the few features that are still coming down the road you don't even care about. RW does SO much to help in running games and keeping games moving forward.

Make an informed decision with actual use of the software and not from stuff you read on the internet. Especially when the missing features and MORE is coming down the road. LW has proven that each new release (which we get for free) has improvements and new features. You really can't not expect "more" than that from a software company.

[wurzel]

If only we could. This is something that I've indicated in the previous, big updates, but that clearly isn't making sense to everyone.

Okay, so your main target is getting new customers. That is absolutely okay from a purely financial perspective. If you take into account how many current users are a bit disappointed, don't you think that a significant number of the new users will be disappointed as well?

Maybe a feasible way to avoid further disappointments is a clear statement on the product page which desirable features are NOT supported at the moment. And please avoid further promises of time lines.

Might be a job for the new marketing officer.

[Vargr]

I agree with ShadowChemesh.

RW is a great program with lots of features. So try it out - there is no risk.

[daplunk]

100%. most if the things I find people in this thread are hanging for I have never even considered needing in my campaigns. There are always going to be things that people want though that is not yet available.

Personally I think there are two things that absolutely must be delivered first and must be delivered correctly in order to achieve the desired outcome...

The content Market. Bet your bottom dollar that requirements have been added by 3rd parties during discussions which have caused delays here. Get this right though and LWs profit is going to increase.

Web based view... The market has shifted since realm Works was invisioned. Cloud services now means something completely different to people than it did 5 years ago and expectations have changed. They need to deliver this to come in line with other cloud based solutions to ensure the usability by both dm and player will improve. Again this needs to happen as will attract more users and therefore more money.

Both of these things are core improvements that demand significant planning and infrastructure to ensure they are done right. Get it right and the money will come enabling Lone Wolf to invest more heavily in the features that small yet vocal groups of DMs are in need of.

[pakrat77]

I've been working with Realm Works since December when I started planning my Shadowrun campaign. There have been a few minor issues I've run in to but most of it has been user error.

I sat in on Rob's session at GenCon talking about the content market and spent probably 30 minutes talking to him at the booth on Saturday.

To me the content market is "hey, this is a really cool thing we will be able to do". Yes I want to run the Grande Temple of Jing for my players without having to key the the entire thing in myself. But I'm lazy and will wait for the content market. In the mean time I will continue copying and running Shadowrun missions (which won't be in the market) in my campaign with Realm Works.

The market and realm syncing takes an amount of planning to avoid all kinds of issues most of us never think about. And remember, all of this is being done by three people!

[chaoscowboy]

Alright well I bought this software because I wanted something like masterplan only pathfinder compatible. If it can manage xp, gear, and help me organize my plots I guess its worth the price.

[daplunk]

You can certainly find ways to do all of that however:

Hero Labs integration really shines, especially for management of player XP and gear. (and monsters, and npcs)

Personally I have my players loading into a Hero Labs *.por file. XP, gear, spells, level ups are all handled through Hero Labs. Combat is also managed through Hero Labs using the Encounter Manager.

You will certainly be able to manage your plots via Realm Works though and you can certainly load it up with all the gear you like and XP tracking should be simple if you do plan on doing it within the tool.

Have a play within Story Board mode. And don't forget you can load up a Smart Image and add pins. You can connect those pins to other content. When you load a smart image up these a little button on the top right that splits the screen into two halfs, image or flow chart on the left, selected content on the right. This is great for running games as you can have the picture of the dungeon on the left, click pins as player enter rooms and the content for that room loads on the right.

Awesome feature yet something I did not truly understand until 6 months into my RWs use.

[chaoscowboy]

I've got the fan-made encounter library for reign of winter set up, and don't quite find the hero lab encounter manager up to snuff, especially given that I run stuff on roll20 with plenty of macros (and import scripts), I think I can handle that. I just need the stuff you said it can do well. I wish there was some helper for making sure loot levels are as they should be for their level and encounters aren't too hard but that seems like a wish that will never be.

[EightBitz]

You have 60 days from purchase to ask LW for your money back. My advice is to take that time and actually TRY the software. Just because some people are whiny about stuff does not mean the software is not fantastic. Most likely you will find the few features that are still coming down the road you don't even care about. RW does SO much to help in running games and keeping games moving forward.

Make an informed decision with actual use of the software and not from stuff you read on the internet. Especially when the missing features and MORE is coming down the road. LW has proven that each new release (which we get for free) has improvements and new features. You really can't not expect "more" than that from a software company.

I'm one of the whiny people ShadowChemosh is talking about. I want printing. But I also agree that you should try it out and make an informed decision. Maybe what's important to me isn't important to you. Maybe what's important to others isn't important to you.

You've already made the purchase. You have the 60 days. Won't hurt anything to kick in the tires and drive it around the block.

[ShadowChemosh]

I'm one of the whiny people ShadowChemosh is talking about.
Absolutely no disagreement from me on this statement. :p :D :)

[EightBitz]

Absolutely no disagreement from me on this statement. :p :D :)

Just for that, I'm gonna nitpick. :-p

The second comment in this thread offers bad, or at least, very unclear advice:
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=51966

2) How to deal with your house rules and community Pathfinder Pack?
A: You should treat the community data set files in the same way you would official Hero Lab files. This means you should NOT make changes directly to the .user files as those changes will be lost when you update to the next version. Instead you should create a new uniquely named .user file that does a Replaces Thing ID if you need to put in your own house rules over these community data sets.

I generally consider the use of "Replaces Thing ID" bad practice, because the replaced thing becomes completely unavailable, regardless of which sources are checked or unchecked. And this can cause much confusion.

Rather, create your own thing, give it a source, then preclude the thing you want to replace, and give the preclusion the same source. This way, your changes are only effective if your own source is checked. If your source is unchecked, it defaults back to the original thing.

Unless, you really, absolutely, 100% want to exclude something, preclude it instead of replacing it, and define a source for that preclusion.

[Dark Lord Galen]

SOAPBOX "whine" :D
@EightBitz> Not sure what a reference to a herolab Posting has to do with this, other than, as seems the " chosen vernacular" "Nit-pick" against Shadow, so it really has no value here....

@Shadow> I have always had (and still have) the greatest of respect for your efforts here on the forum and in support of HL... but to classify others as "whiny" (interpreted as a yammerer from my perspective) is not accurate, (well in most cases:eek:). Being the left brained engineer type, I like the black n white of things..... and to point out challenges, failures and successes are not whiny but simply stating facts in the light of day.

I don't think (IMHO) that it is unreasonable to expect LW and more specifically Realm Works to do some of the things that was advertised YEARS ago. Nor do I think its Whining to complain on their lack of making those deliverables in what any supplier/consumer relationship would consider "reasonable amount of time", especially since the sad but true comparative here is now labeled as "Soon".

I think it is the collective public opinion that the poll was a failure, miss leading and served no real purpose other than to help RW staff know what added features were popular, but they missed badly on grouping those responses together when each group (DMs vs Players)had very different ideas, needs, and expectations.

They compounded this with a lack of good forecast planning on how long things would take (both from an internal company perspective and and outward reporting mechanism) to the public. This was further impacted by Developer losses early into the project.

Frustration on both sides set in, and the trenches were "dug" each defending their ground.

Is it reasonable to expect some things?
Possibly
I for one have no real need for being able to print since 95% of my tabling is now electronic, but not everyone games as my table does. So I think this was a reasonable expectation EARLY on.. yet still is not here...

Is it reasonable to at least export all the data self installed if one chose to no longer use RW?
Yes, but with the caveat that this was not offered as an option early on so it is not reasonable to expect it to be placed above other deliverable or overstatements that should be addressed first.

Is it a reasonable expectation to have custom calendars?
Yep, especially since this was "presumably near complete" YEARS ago. But still remains unavailable. (see below for references)
I have LONG been a vocal sound of the lack of action on this topic (see other threads)HOWEVER, while I desire, want and even need it for my RW to be a better DM tool, I went back to my old tried and true methods as I cannot wait for LW and "soon". I would even backseat this to exporting or player journals as this seems to better fit the need of the many, my own players included, who feel their money was a waste for the Player version.


Is it reasonable to expect VTT Features, Live sync, etc etc etc...NOW?
No

As these were things discussed that "could happen in the future". Just like Player's version, (which is virtually DOA till more features support it)

The Kickstarter was intended to supply capital to LW to hire developers to "push it thru to the finish line".
One goal of the KS was to share your creations with other GMs. All these years later the finish line has crept closer, but what was supposed to be a sprint to finish has turned into a marathon in the Rockies with the unfortunate result of leaving all parties on both sides exhausted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSbgEOYcUhU
In Feb 2013 we were told

:37 "Three years of development and a year of refinement" Counting that number we are on year 7
:40 Rob says" We are now in the home stretch"
:50 "Kickstarter to enable more features sooner" Bullet mark
1:00-1:18 Features available now> Custom Calendars and Dates"
1:44 "RW Starts with all the features you would expect from a word processor"
Well I think some expected printing.
6:46 RW Supports (implies at the time of video), video shows custom calendars "Imperial and Lunar" 6:58 Even automatically transferring dates from one calendar to another.
8:18 Why a Kickstarter if RW is done?" Rob's words.. hope to hire more dev to support the cloud server and the "community repository" 8:41"letting us accomplish more and do it faster"

And last but not least, the one that provides probably the most "unrest among the natives"
8:53 Rob says>"as you have seen here, we are already close to completion"

But Shadow (and may notable others) are right. There is a refund if you make your purchase and are unhappy with it... There are some Great features, some good features and some not so good ones... But with all its warts, RW is "hopefully" going to be come everything promised and more than what was envisioned by any.

[EightBitz]

SOAPBOX "whine" :D
@EightBitz> Not sure what a reference to a herolab Posting has to do with this, other than, as seems the " chosen vernacular" "Nit-pick" against Shadow, so it really has no value here....

Shadow was teasing. I was teasing back. That's the alpha and omega. Why so serious?

[Dark Lord Galen]

Ah, pointtaken.... though some may be unfamiliar with your shared bandy....
:p:D
And the HL reference left me abit lost to the grey of it.... aka the left brain engaged.
:)

[Exmortis]

One product cant be all things to all people.

For me, RW has now replaced HeroLab as the one product I will not play RPGs with out in the future, followed by Hero Lab in close second. RW is the GM tool of my dreams, HL the Player tool of my dreams.

I have now two campaign worlds in development, and I have tried oh so many products to do such an under taking, and none hold a candle to RW. Gone is my duffle bag 4 binders, second duffle bag of books, all replaced by my Surface Pro 3, connected to three larger screens.

Gone are the reams of hand outs, player maps, character sheets, encounter records. All replaced by my Surface Pro 3.

Gone are the days of players begging me to tell them the name of the NPC they spoke to 4 weeks ago about the coin thingy. Or the lost maps, the hand out with the player working over time. Gone are the piles of ink cartridges spent printing mountains of paper. My printer sits oh so lonely, never used.

All of this is now on my Surface Pro 3:

Hero Lab for all players sheets and encounters
RW for the campaign, adventure, handouts, management, back player historical notes.
D20 Ultimate for interactive maps.
Campaign Cartographer 3+ for map making
Pathfinder book PDF speak for them selves

Instead of carrying back breaking 50lbs+ or books and binders and crappola, I carry one Tablet and dice.

Realm Works is a campaign creators dream. So far the only feature I want is calendars. It will come, for now that the one thing still done by hand on paper.

I am now going and entering my favorite old modules into RW, T1-4 Tempe of Elemental Evil just completed (yes complete, every little tidbit is in RW), next up, U1-3 Saltmarsh series. Each for now is done as its own realm, but with content market they will be sharable entities for my campaign worlds.

Realm Works is not with out its faults, but its like comparing a kite to an F35. On top of that, it has been improved significantly along the way, updates, features, bug fixes, UI enhancements. Not all to my liking, but I am but one person, and RW is for everyone.

The more you use it, the more you can't believe you ever played, created or enjoyed a campaign with out it.

[chaoscowboy]

Given that I play online, have access to masterplan I can still use for plot stuff, I usually run adventure paths, and don't run monsters or the like from herolab itself, this software as it is right now is just not worth the 50 american I paid for it, which is a pretty penny in canuk coins up here. I've gone through this thing with a fine toothed comb and there is legitimately nothing in here that I can't do in obsidian portal, masterplan, and roll20. If it had pathfinder GM specific tools that I've been waiting for for ages, hoping someone would make incorporated into a plot system like masterplan does, maybe, but it's just not worth it. I'm getting my money back.

[MNBlockHead]

Maybe a feasible way to avoid further disappointments is a clear statement on the product page which desirable features are NOT supported at the moment.

Who advertises what a product is NOT ?

If the feature is not listed, don't assume it is there. If you are not sure, you have the forum to post to, you can e-mail the developers, and you have a 60-day money-back period.

There is nothing misleading about LWD's current advertising.

[chaoscowboy]

Oh and to top it all off, I tried to launch an imported portfolio from hero lab and somehow it managed to reset my hero lab back to demo mode. So I had to re-initialize my license and now I have to re-download all my content, much of which is third party. YAY! ~sarcasm.

Goodbye realmworks, at least herolab is pretty good (albeit pricey).

[wurzel]

Who advertises what a product is NOT ?

If the feature is not listed, don't assume it is there. If you are not sure, you have the forum to post to, you can e-mail the developers, and you have a 60-day money-back period.

Vendors of professional business software do that. That way they can avoid costly lawsuits.

Of course advertising is completely needless. You can always contact the developers to find out what they have in their queue. And you can always spend some of your precious time to find out what the product can do and what the shortcomings are.

Unfortunately all competitors inform their customers, and if you don't follow you will be out of business faster than you can imagine.

[rob]

Oh and to top it all off, I tried to launch an imported portfolio from hero lab and somehow it managed to reset my hero lab back to demo mode. So I had to re-initialize my license and now I have to re-download all my content, much of which is third party. YAY! ~sarcasm.

Goodbye realmworks, at least herolab is pretty good (albeit pricey).

It is physically impossible for Realm Works to reset Hero Lab in any way. So that reset occurred due to something completely isolated within Hero Lab. It would have happened when you next launched Hero Lab, regardless of whether it was via Realm Works. The only exception is if you have TWO separate copies of Hero Lab installed on your computer, one activated and the other not, and Realm Works managed to find a different one from the one you normally use.

Beyond that, it sounds like your GMing preferences don't match where Realm Works currently shines, and that's fine. Thanks for taking the time to give the product a try!

[rob]

Vendors of professional business software do that. That way they can avoid costly lawsuits.

Of course advertising is completely needless. You can always contact the developers to find out what they have in their queue. And you can always spend some of your precious time to find out what the product can do and what the shortcomings are.

Unfortunately all competitors inform their customers, and if you don't follow you will be out of business faster than you can imagine.

You mean companies that sell software with many more zeroes after the price tag than Realm Works? :p

I don't believe that we advertise Realm Works as having any features that it lacks. And we don't preclude users from discussing what it lacks here on the forums, as witnessed by this very thread. So it's easy for someone to find out those answers. And with the 60-day money-back guarantee, nobody is out of their money if they give Realm Works a try and find it doesn't do what they want.

For a $50 product, that's about as big of a safety net as can be reasonably expected. And I believe that it's a lot more than many other software products offer. That's my opinion, at least. :)

[daplunk]

I have to admit. If Realm Works, Hero Labs, Roll20 and Obsidian Portal had a baby I'd probably just quit my job and become a full-time DM. Maybe throw TableSmith in there also.

Our group had a rather unique situation this week where we had to end on tense moment due to time. Instead of waiting for the next session we picked up the next day over Facebook. It was messy and hectic but it worked. The group excitement was amazing in that we basically had 3 full days of gaming and the focus of the group shifted from being Dungeon Bashers to actual role play.

That in turn led me to search for solutions that would cater to that situation better. Obsidian Portal, City of Brass, Epic Words. They all had what I was looking for. The ability to share the world I had build with my players. What they have that I've yet to see in Realm Worlds however is the ability for my players to interact and react to that world as I share it.

Web portal, group chat, private chat, instant online access to the content from where ever we all were. The ability to roll dice over the internet and most importantly the non-requirement for me to sort it all afterwards and copy and paste the content back and forth between Realm Works and facebook. Online XP logs and loot tracking has also been a popular request this week.

I stumbled across the Web Viewer that was demo'd earlier in the year. It was a truly exciting experience and god I hope it comes soon so I can go back to using a single tool. But they highlighted the weakness of the tool there themselves, it currently has no ability for the players to respond and I feel that is absolutely necessary in today's RPG market.

Overall all of the tools I tried were inferior in comparison to Realm Works. But as my player's can't interact with Realm Works that doesn't matter and we have been forced to adopt a new tool to manage the sharing of information in-between sessions.

Honestly, what Realm Works really needs IMO is the Web Viewer with a forum board style system that interacts with the Realm Works database taking advantage of linking and all the other content we have created. That would get my players into the tool on a regular basis and make it an interactive two-way experience.

Keep at it Rob. You have created a wonderful tool. We're just all visualizing the end product and wishing we could have it right now ;)

[chaoscowboy]

Hey thanks for the city of brass suggestion I'd never even heard of it! Going to give it a trial. And for all my bluster, I am very thankful I could get a refund from Realmworks. It doesn't fit what I need it to do and that's fine. I got my money back so there's really no hard feelings.

[EightBitz]

Hey thanks for the city of brass suggestion I'd never even heard of it! Going to give it a trial. And for all my bluster, I am very thankful I could get a refund from Realmworks. It doesn't fit what I need it to do and that's fine. I got my money back so there's really no hard feelings.

At least you tried it and saw for yourself.

[gamsOnline]

As for content,

The Emerald Spire demo they were presenting at their GenCon booth this weekend was very well done. Truly showed me a lot more of the detail and possibility with the software.

Personally, I have sat on my copy of RW for the past year, intimidated and overwhelmed by those possibilities. However, with the release of the CM this Fall, seeing exactly how that content will be incorporated, structurally, into existing Realms should shove me over that mountain of hesitation.

( My OCD demands that I do something correct the first time. LoL )

Keep at it LW.

Chatting with you all at GenCon was great at putting faces to names on forum posts. A nice reminder of the humanity residing behind the internet veil.

gams

[EightBitz]

As for content,

The Emerald Spire demo they were presenting at their GenCon booth this weekend was very well done. Truly showed me a lot more of the detail and possibility with the software.

Personally, I have sat on my copy of RW for the past year, intimidated and overwhelmed by those possibilities. However, with the release of the CM this Fall, seeing exactly how that content will be incorporated, structurally, into existing Realms should shove me over that mountain of hesitation.

( My OCD demands that I do something correct the first time. LoL )

Keep at it LW.

Chatting with you all at GenCon was great at putting faces to names on forum posts. A nice reminder of the humanity residing behind the internet veil.

gams

You'll never do things right the first time. You can move things around (as far as containers), so just start doing things. If you don't want to work on a real game or a real setting, just start playing around. In order to do things right, you should get a feel for how things work, and what effect it will have to do things one way vs. another way.

So, just start playing with it.

[kbs666]

You'll never do things right the first time. You can move things around (as far as containers), so just start doing things. If you don't want to work on a real game or a real setting, just start playing around. In order to do things right, you should get a feel for how things work, and what effect it will have to do things one way vs. another way.

So, just start playing with it.
Really this is the absolute best way to learn RW.

Or even pick some module, I used Village of Hommlet simply because I had it and had it functionally memorized from the number of times I've run it for people, and put it into RW.

[wurzel]

You mean companies that sell software with many more zeroes after the price tag than Realm Works? :p

Ah, yes. Many more zeroes. Stuff like Oracle, SAP and such. Things I used to earn money with.

I tend to forget that RealmWorks is free of charge, judging from that pespective. I apologize for my criticism ;)

[eponette]

Ah, yes. Many more zeroes. Stuff like Oracle, SAP and such. Things I used to earn money with.

I tend to forget that RealmWorks is free of charge, judging from that pespective. I apologize for my criticism ;)


Indeed. I find RW very cheap (not a reason to increase the price though ;) )

I use it since the beginning (a little after the kickstarter) on 2 different campaigns. If you take the price of on session (drinks, food, ...), RW price is close to nothing.

[Chemlak]

Just poking my nose in, really.

I consider RW invaluable, I think I've mentioned a few times that I don't ever want to run a campaign without it. I am very much a casual user (at least until I start running a Pathfinder game again), and my GMing style is pretty "fly by the seat of my pants", but RW has drastically improved my overall game organisation and plotting.

I know that I'm an enthusiastic supporter of LWD, and it wouldn't surprise me if some people expect me to be a shill for the company, but here's how I see it:

RW is not for everyone. It is most certainly not all things to all people. It can't be, for starters, but there are huge swathes of features that aren't available which would either make it better, are essential for it to be all it can be, or were part of the original KS sales pitch, and those features aren't here yet.

So I absolutely get why some people aren't entirely happy about some things.

Personally, I'm okay with development times - not sure how much of it is my age, and how much of it is working for a company where the IT investment is a bit... dire, but long development is AOK with me.

I want a product that I can use right now. It doesn't need all the bells and whistles, but it needs to be something I can use to record details of my campaign and write up plots. I can do those things, so I've got the product that I want. I would like to have those bells and whistles, of course, but I don't need them.

[ShadowChemosh]

For a $50 product, that's about as big of a safety net as can be reasonably expected. And I believe that it's a lot more than many other software products offer. That's my opinion, at least. :)
Software that sells as cheap as 50 bucks often come with "upgrade" costs and zero to no support. You may get a year of "fixes" for 50 bucks but the next big change like "Market Place" in example would be another 50 dollar upgrade cost.

Based on Hero Lab and what we have seen for RW this is not LW business model. Which is why I am often stressing the "free" upgrades with NEW features people get for such a small price tag. Yes I say small price tag based on the number of hours of "use" you get out of the software. The ability to leave the software alone for a year and to be able to upgrade to the latest version without cost is crazy. To be able to put in a support ticket or forum post and get help no matter how long its been sense you purchased is amazing.

[EightBitz]

Software that sells as cheap as 50 bucks often come with "upgrade" costs and zero to no support. You may get a year of "fixes" for 50 bucks but the next big change like "Market Place" in example would be another 50 dollar upgrade cost.

Based on Hero Lab and what we have seen for RW this is not LW business model. Which is why I am often stressing the "free" upgrades with NEW features people get for such a small price tag. Yes I say small price tag based on the number of hours of "use" you get out of the software. The ability to leave the software alone for a year and to be able to upgrade to the latest version without cost is crazy. To be able to put in a support ticket or forum post and get help no matter how long its been sense you purchased is amazing.

Also, the licensing model. I installed the Windows 10 anniversary update, and I got a notice that it appeared that there were significant changes to my computer, and my license was now invalid, but I could move the license to this computer.

So I did. Just a menu option. Didn't have to call anyone or email anyone or wait on hold for anyone ... just selected a menu option. Bam. Done.

And people can gripe about needing licenses to begin with, but I don't care about that. I care about how intrusive the licensing model is. LW's is the easiest, friendliest, least intrusive model I've come across.

[MNBlockHead]

You mean companies that sell software with many more zeroes after the price tag than Realm Works? :p

I spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on software for my own company and I've helped companies make seven-figure software purchases.

No matter how many zeros are in the price tag, I've not seen anyone advertising or marketing what they don't do, with the rare exception of a product that takes the "we don't do everything, we just do this one thing better than anyone else" approach and that approach just doesn't work well with a Swiss-army-knife product like RW.

The main difference with pricey software and inexpensive hobby software like RW is that with the pricey software, you have a lot more access to the sales team, who you meet in person. You also have RFIs, RFPs, procurement experts, and a cross-functional teams who identify requirements, create business plans, etc.

The funny thing is, I've only spent $50 or whatever I spent when I bought RW and not a dime since, but through the forums I've had a great deal of direct access to the developers. Not just middlemen sales folk, not just user volunteer "evangelists," but the owner of the company and the guys writing the code.

The amount of communication and transparency seems very inefficient in terms of cost vs reward. The market here, I suppose, is somewhat special. LWD is serving a small but very passionate market. They are providing a tool that we use to create and store our creative efforts. But it is easy to see why there are not many people making the efforts and investments to provide software to support this market.

Maybe the vertical I work in is unusual. I would like to see examples of companies spending marking dollars advertising what they are not selling.

[MNBlockHead]

I want a product that I can use right now. It doesn't need all the bells and whistles, but it needs to be something I can use to record details of my campaign and write up plots. I can do those things, so I've got the product that I want. I would like to have those bells and whistles, of course, but I don't need them.

I second that! Though, I do note, and appreciate, that you still have your Chief Calendar Champion title in your signature line. KEEP THE FAITH!

[Tharmiones]

However, with the release of the CM this Fall,

I wouldn't place a bet with a single penny on that or any other date/time frame that is posted here from anyone INCLUDING the LW staff. I've been disappointed to often now that I do only believe something will get available to us once it is actually available and not a single second earlier.

I had high hopes for the GenCon that there would be some kind of presentation of actually NEW things, like what Content would be available at the first Wave that was mentioned in the GenCon Newsletter but as it turns out: Not a single bit of new information since April just the ever repeating "We are progressing".

Yeah I read the Releasenotes of the latest RW version that claim that it does contain significant changes for the upcoming CM. I'll tell you something: I don't care, I'm a kickstarter backer and from the features that where supposed to be done from the kickstarter only a very few are actually achieved with a delay of 3 YEARS.


What We Will Do With Your Support

As we indicated above, initial Realm Works development is nearly complete, with release slated for July, 2013. This Kickstarter will allow us to accelerate our current development efforts and pack more features into the product for its public release.

The key capabilities to benefit most from this Kickstarter are the cloud server and community repository components. Critical features of these two components include:

Full player access to revealed aspects of the world and the ability to download or review anything they’ve learned about the world. Our Fog of World technology governs the information that players can access, limiting them to only what they’ve learned through play. [DONE]

GMs can share their creations through the cloud for use by others. [Later than SOON]

GMs can browse the work of others and integrate it into their own worlds. Imagine being able to find a pre-made encounter, or a tavern, or an entire region with adventures and NPCs. Drop it into your own world, change a few names, hook it into locations in your world, and it’s fully integrated for use. No scribbled notes. No Post-Its. No juggling between PDFs, books, and your own files. Realm Works is built from the ground up for exactly this purpose.[SOON + Later than SOON]

Secure cloud backup of all material for GMs. [DONE]

Synchronization of different computers to the cloud, with automatic change detection and resolution.[Partly]

We’ll also leverage your support to further refine the overall user experience and enhance the feature set offered by Realm Works.[Ongoing]

Player Access is done and is being improved with Web Access and potential other things. It is available for a bit longer than 1 1/2 year now.

The "automatic change detection and resolution" isn't anywhere as you can't change different things on different PC's at the same time because you will lose every change you make at one PC. Yes It detects a problem and all it does let you "resolve" is that you can choose to either have the Cloud or the Local Data be the master. That's not automatic that's manual and calling it a solution is quite far-fetched.

And as for Customer Calendars: It was mentioned as an already working feature during Kickstarter. Yes it turned out to be not as flexible and useful as it was expected to be, BUT within 3 years after the supposed release it's something that should be working again(!).

Countent Market is called as SOON so often I lost track.
Sure I can use RW to enter my own content or copy/organize published content from PDF to RW, but to be honest almost everything I could do now I could already do with the special pre-release version I got before the initial release. The only benefit would be that the players could use the Player Edition to access the Revealed content, yet no one from my group does. That last part is obviously not the fault of LW, but if it is just used by me the benefit is not as high as only having to buy already made content and tailor it a bit to fit my needs and run it.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to do that in every detail that I would like because I do also have a job and something else to do. So I'm more than willing to pay for others to do that for me, but even after three years I still can't.

Unfortunately there are no GenCon Videos for this year so far, if there ever will be.
So for a person that could not understand the only source so far is this board and reading that "NOTHING NEW" was presented I think that this is a bad sign. Well, I read it that instead of Rise of the Runelords the presentation on RW on the GenCon was done with the Emerald Spire Paizo Module? That's not even getting a "Cool" from me as presenting the same functionality that has been presented with RotRL for the last two years on GenCon with a different Module is not progress.
I could be totally wrong but as said before the only source I have available is this board and the statement here was "NOTHING NEW". :mad:

[adzling]

the below +1000.
this is what our group needs and what, frankly, I thought RW would provide given the description of the Player Version.
Sad Face.


Honestly, what Realm Works really needs IMO is the Web Viewer with a forum board style system that interacts with the Realm Works database taking advantage of linking and all the other content we have created. That would get my players into the tool on a regular basis and make it an interactive two-way experience.

Keep at it Rob. You have created a wonderful tool. We're just all visualizing the end product and wishing we could have it right now ;)

[Joe]

@Tharmiones

First of all let me say that I hear your frustration, and that I understand. Excuses are worthless, so I won't give you any. We know we've disappointed you all, and we're certainly disappointed in how long things are taking ourselves.

That said, allow me to clarify one of your points though. There's an important difference between Rise of the Runelords (as shown in years past) and Emerald Spire (which we showed this year):

Rise of the Runelords was entered in by hand. For the scale of the Content Market and the amount of content we want to make available at a decent rate, we discovered that this approach would simply not be viable. A significant portion of our recent delays have been due to us coming to this realization and changing our approach.

Emerald Spire is one of the first units of content to be coming off our new partially-automated production line. We've built a number of internal tools that have made it far faster for us to prepare content for the market. The upfront cost of this tooling has been significant, but we think it's the right call in the long term. This will allow us to keep new content flowing to the market in a steady stream, rather than a slow trickle.

[kbs666]

Rise of the Runelords was entered in by hand. For the scale of the Content Market and the amount of content we want to make available at a decent rate, we discovered that this approach would simply not be viable. A significant portion of our recent delays have been due to us coming to this realization and changing our approach.

Emerald Spire is one of the first units of content to be coming off our new partially-automated production line. We've built a number of internal tools that have made it far faster for us to prepare content for the market. The upfront cost of this tooling has been significant, but we think it's the right call in the long term. This will allow us to keep new content flowing to the market in a steady stream, rather than a slow trickle.
As someone who has done this on a smaller scale than a Paizo AP I can agree with that whole heartedly. Are you going to make that tool available to 3rd parties?

[Grey Mage]

I would happily +1000 having that tool available either as a part of RW or just as a tool that can be downloaded.

Such a tool made available might mitigate some of the ire that the past 2 years has allowed to slip in.

[JustinThomason]

Agreed on the desire to see the import tool released in some format to the wider community. It would really be a boon for folks who use a lot of published content.

[Acenoid]

Well personally I would think twice, if they made a large investment, to get content in, it would probably not be the smartest thing to hand it out to everyone else for a bargain. Also who knows what kind of tools these are and how the input data needs to be prepared.

For us end users, there should be a well thought out and nifty import / export functionality, but regarding professional preparation of content in terms of content market quality, will not be archived with this...

That said, I'm currently try to work with the tools at hand. Some things with RW I really like and some I really hate, since it takes LWD quite some time to fix those minor crash-bugs :)

[Acenoid]

Btw while you wait, I found this :
http://jhollands.co.uk/spaceplan/


GL! :D

[Zaphod Beebledoc]

Btw while you wait, I found this :
http://jhollands.co.uk/spaceplan/


GL! :D

Hobbits would love that! :D

[wurzel]

Hobbits would love that! :D

And potatoes. At least the end :eek:

[woobyluv]

Just adding my $0.02 here...

I understand fully that this is a complex piece of software you are developing here, but people have a limited attention span for anything anymore. We were told 1st quarter '16 would see the release of the content market. It is now mid August. Personally, I expect delays to pop up. Murphy's Law and all. I have been waiting patiently for the Pathfinder module to buy because I find that I just don't have the time to do ALL the data entry for my campaigns. I do have time to modify an existing module, however.

Having said that, my patience is wearing thin. I understand all that you have said on the matter. I know it is coming. I understand the obstacles you face in such a behemoth undertaking, but my patience wears thin. I still have faith you can get it done though. I wish for you all great health and godspeed. You will need it to succeed here. :)

[Joe]

As someone who has done this on a smaller scale than a Paizo AP I can agree with that whole heartedly. Are you going to make that tool available to 3rd parties?

I would happily +1000 having that tool available either as a part of RW or just as a tool that can be downloaded.

Agreed on the desire to see the import tool released in some format to the wider community. It would really be a boon for folks who use a lot of published content.


I feel as though my description of what's going on can be misunderstood, and that I should clarify further.

I characterized what we're doing as a "partially automated production line" comprised of "a number of tools". It is not a single tool and requires a multi-stage process. There is nothing even resembling documentation or tutorials for using them. It is not designed to be intuitive or consumer-friendly. It is (mostly) not integrated with the Realm Works client. This is not something we can release to anyone in its current form, and would take significant effort to reach that point. It is a messy hodge-podge of developer utilities and hacks to get the job done.

That's not to say we're philosophically opposed to making some kind of tooling like this available in the future, but it would be really bad form for us to make any kind of promises in that regard until we deliver on those we've already made. Right now we need to focus on getting the Content Market delivered, and these internal tools are a means to that end.

[adzling]

DONT PROMISE ANYTHING ELSE.
(just get your existing promises taken care of)
;-)

[Mystic Lemur]

The more questions you try to answer, the more questions people will have. For myself, I am glad to know why there were delays, but it doesn't change the fact that delays occurred. I love RW. My biggest problem right now is finding the time to do everything I want with what the product is already capable of. And y'all make it "worse" by continuing to add new things. :P

[kbs666]

I feel as though my description of what's going on can be misunderstood, and that I should clarify further.

I characterized what we're doing as a "partially automated production line" comprised of "a number of tools". It is not a single tool and requires a multi-stage process. There is nothing even resembling documentation or tutorials for using them. It is not designed to be intuitive or consumer-friendly. It is (mostly) not integrated with the Realm Works client. This is not something we can release to anyone in its current form, and would take significant effort to reach that point. It is a messy hodge-podge of developer utilities and hacks to get the job done.

That's not to say we're philosophically opposed to making some kind of tooling like this available in the future, but it would be really bad form for us to make any kind of promises in that regard until we deliver on those we've already made. Right now we need to focus on getting the Content Market delivered, and these internal tools are a means to that end.
I didn't misunderstand you. LWD is not the only entity involved in producing content for the CM. Anything that improves a fairly slow and tedious process would improve the physical quality of the end products.

[Silveras]

I feel as though my description of what's going on can be misunderstood, and that I should clarify further.

I characterized what we're doing as a "partially automated production line" comprised of "a number of tools". It is not a single tool and requires a multi-stage process. There is nothing even resembling documentation or tutorials for using them. It is not designed to be intuitive or consumer-friendly. It is (mostly) not integrated with the Realm Works client. This is not something we can release to anyone in its current form, and would take significant effort to reach that point. It is a messy hodge-podge of developer utilities and hacks to get the job done.

That's not to say we're philosophically opposed to making some kind of tooling like this available in the future, but it would be really bad form for us to make any kind of promises in that regard until we deliver on those we've already made. Right now we need to focus on getting the Content Market delivered, and these internal tools are a means to that end.

I think it is also highly unlikely that any such tool(s) would ever be released to the public, on legal grounds.

Why?

Because LoneWolf's licensing discussions with the publishers have emphasized protecting their intellectual property in RealmWorks' Content Market. Tools that make it easier for people who pirate PDFs to also extract that content and load it into private Realms would increase the incentive for the dishonest to try to get around LoneWolf's policing of the Content Market, and to try to sell pirated copies of content.

Yes, it is another example of how the few bad actors spoil things for the honest people, but I don't think it is an unreasonable conjecture.

[Viking2054]

I think it is also highly unlikely that any such tool(s) would ever be released to the public, on legal grounds.

Why?

Because LoneWolf's licensing discussions with the publishers have emphasized protecting their intellectual property in RealmWorks' Content Market. Tools that make it easier for people who pirate PDFs to also extract that content and load it into private Realms would increase the incentive for the dishonest to try to get around LoneWolf's policing of the Content Market, and to try to sell pirated copies of content.

Yes, it is another example of how the few bad actors spoil things for the honest people, but I don't think it is an unreasonable conjecture.

I'm not sure this would actually be a big problem with Realm Works. Since distribution has to be through LWD's cloud system for Realm Works, there is the possibility of built in policing (by LWD and the IP holders) as well as public policing by concerned individuals of anything offered up to the public. If an IP holder informed LWD of IP infringement it could be taken down quickly and the offender notified that if they did it a second time they'd be banned for a certain time frame if not for life. I would imagine that anything put up on the content market by an individual might require some kind of certification that it is holey your own material and does not include anyone else's Intellectual Property.

I think fair use would cover an individual importing the information from a PDF they own to be used with their gaming group(s) via player access. The big downside to providing the tools LWD is using would not necessarily be piracy, but a loss in revenue through the content market from those that already own the PDF version of an item also up for sale through the content market.

[Acenoid]

"Abby fine reader" (an OCR reader) scans tons of pages and text, so copyright issues are probably not the reason. But LWD has an interested to stay on good terms with all those publishers, who hope to be able to multiply their sales with books, pdfs and soon the LWD content market for the same thing.

[rob]

Real quick thoughts on the tools...

* Making them available should have no legal issues. If someone uses them on a pirated PDF they acquired, that's fine. The key requirement of publishers is ensuring that users can't re-distribute the material, which is the big problem with pirated PDFs. That can be solved by simply shutting down anyone who tries, since we'll have control over the conduit used for distribution.

* There are no "self competition" concerns here. Look at Hero Lab. We make all the same tools we use fully available, so anybody can create their own data files from the books/PDFs they own. Some users do that, but the vast majority value their time more than the money it costs to have that already work done for them. That will be the same with Realm Works.

* The big issue is that the tools aren't even remotely ready for anyone else to use. I wouldn't even consider letting a trusted 3PP have access to them right now, since there are too many gotchas littered across them. Even with lots of signs saying "Here be dragons!" within the tools, our own people have gotten themselves into trouble on a few occasions. So the tools are in no way ready for controlled use by trusted parties, let alone ready for the average user to dive in with! Getting there will take time to improve the tools, and that time competes with everything else we're trying to get done. Making the tools available is definitely something I want to do, but it's a lower priority than many other things, which need to be completed first.

* An additional issue with the tools is that we're employing some commercial libraries and tools into the overall process, since there's no value in re-inventing wheels. Those external components would currently need to be purchased by someone who wants to use the tools we've created, and two of them are expensive (i.e. lots more than the cost of Realm Works). So making the tools available to users is a non-starter until we can resolve that issue in some reasonable way. I think it's doable, but it would require still further work on our part to put into place, making the overall task that much more time-intensive.

Hope this helps clarify things! :)

[Parody]

One other thing about tools: as a creator who has access to such things, I'd want a toolset that works from my source files. PDF is an output format, one that loses much of the extra information known even at the level of a layout document (or set of layout documents). Depending on your creative process you might be able to provide even more information than that. A set of tools that fit my process should not only be smoother (because the process is known) but also be able to incorporate intentions and other extra information known at various levels.

The problem, of course, is that everyone's process is different, so the tools and the creative process have to adapt to fit.

[kbs666]

One other thing about tools: as a creator who has access to such things, I'd want a toolset that works from my source files. PDF is an output format, one that loses much of the extra information known even at the level of a layout document (or set of layout documents). Depending on your creative process you might be able to provide even more information than that. A set of tools that fit my process should not only be smoother (because the process is known) but also be able to incorporate intentions and other extra information known at various levels.

The problem, of course, is that everyone's process is different, so the tools and the creative process have to adapt to fit.
Converting from PDF is probably the most cost efficient. If you have enough content that needs to converted paying an IT pro to look at your sources and figure out how to convert them might be an option but you'd need some sort of direct access to the underlying RW db. Ultimately this is why I was hoping for some sort of PDF to RW tool no matter how primitive.

I've messed around with a tool that just took a large amount of text and broke it down to individual sentences, pretty easy to do with regular expressions, which was my first try at breaking a PDF into snippets. It really doesn't save that much time compared to all the other parts of converting a PDF to a RW's realm.

I was very interested in what else LDF was doing to speed up their work flow.

[Acenoid]

full DB access oh *dreams* :D (75% of my problems = resolved)

[adzling]

I have to admit i've spent countless hours populating my realm with content from 3, 4 and 5th edition srun sourcebooks.

Tons of copy-pasta'd lore.

Not sure how any of that could be automated given the changing layouts of the Srun books.

[EightBitz]

full DB access oh *dreams* :D (75% of my problems = resolved)

Uh huh. Be careful what you wish for.

[Philderbeast]

came to read this hoping for some new info... unfortunately it seems like its still coming soon(tm)

I bought this software to run my rune lords campaign, and that's has been dead for 2 years now and I still cant buy the campaign in the tool i bought to run it.

its not all doom and gloom, but I'm surprised you didn't realize the need for automated tools for adventure important a Long time ago, although at least you have them now.

That said Realm works is still a good tool and has its place, but knowing what I know now, I would not buy it to run a published adventure in its current form, or even in an established game setting, its just to painfull to get that level of content in. if your home brewing that, then I would say its indispensable.

[gloranphile]

So here's the thing with my 1.6 GB realm.

I personally inputed 800+ pages of the Guide to Glorantha (http://www.glorantha.com/product/guide-to-glorantha/) (think a complete guide to Tekumel or some other highly-detailed world), along with all the images and maps by hand myself . While it took me several months to complete, it was worth it. And whenever the team changed things in the program, my realm broke it. A lot. But this was a good thing since it helped make RW better for all of us.

Was that the end of my time in RealmWorks? No.

I spend lots of time creating advanced information for my PCs, plots, NPCs, etc. This is time well spent for me, as even the act of typing out these items makes me remember them even more for game time.

Now, not a ton of people play in Glorantha. That means every single book written for the world will likely never get entered into RealmWorks. It's just not feasible for LWD or small companies to take the time to do it. This means that for those of us who don't play Pathfinder or D&D, we're going to have to do the work ourselves, and personally, I like it that way. I know where everything is in my realm!

And my next game will likely not even be in Glorantha. I'm planning a superhero game set in a modified modern world. So I'll go into Realm Works and create a brand new Realm from scratch again.

Because that's what we do as GMs. We create. We imagine and we make happen.

RW makes my life easier. I don't have to sort through thousands of Topics to find what I'm looking for. I can do a search or click a link. I'm very happy with my purchase and look forward to creating more realms in the future!

[ruhar]

RW makes my life easier. I don't have to sort through thousands of Topics to find what I'm looking for. I can do a search or click a link. I'm very happy with my purchase and look forward to creating more realms in the future!

Bravo! Well said.

When I saw this topic had a new post I groaned and wondered who was beating the dead horse this time. I'm glad that wasn't the case. :-)

[MNBlockHead]

For me RW is for creating new content. I use it when creating adventures and my home-brew campaign world, because it is better suited for that than MS Word, Google Docs, Evernote, Onenote, etc.

For published adventure paths, like Curse of Straud or Storm Kings Thunder (which I've bought), and which I would run outside of my world and as stand-alone adventure paths, I wouldn't bother with the data entry, even if they were available in PDFs. I don't find typing (or copy-pasting-formatting) large volumes of existing content fun. If they were available for purchase in the Content Market, I would buy them in a heart beat. Otherwise, paper is good enough for me.

[Exmortis]

For published adventure paths, like Curse of Straud or Storm Kings Thunder (which I've bought), and which I would run outside of my world and as stand-alone adventure paths, I wouldn't bother with the data entry, even if they were available in PDFs. I don't find typing (or copy-pasting-formatting) large volumes of existing content fun. If they were available for purchase in the Content Market, I would buy them in a heart beat. Otherwise, paper is good enough for me.

Before, that is before RW, I would have agreed and even argued with you on this point. HOWEVER, now that I have T1-4, G1-3, and U1-3 all in RW, plus two campaign worlds....

Man I can't wait for the ability to merge my work on the modules series into my campaigns. I took painstaking care and tons of thought how to enter them in a fashion that is both useful for running as a stand alone or pulling into a world.

A few more tweaks and adjustments and they are ready.


Next up? D1-3 and Q1, OH those evil Drow!

[AEIOU]

@Ex Mortis: You are a machine! With the release of Bard's Gate for 5e I'm revisiting those entries in my realms. Being able to merge realms was the selling point for me and I'm waiting as patiently as possible for that to happen.

I'm thinking of T1-4 and U1-3 as well converted to 5e for merging and reskinning for the Lost Lands. But I've gotten sidetracked with video games again so those would be slow entry. You should post some screenshots from those classics you've entered to entice us to keep up. :)

[MNBlockHead]

@Exmortis, I'm impressed! I second AEIOU's requests for screenshots.

[Exmortis]

OK well here is a status info and screenies.

U1 - Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - done
Full QA pass - 50% complete


U2 - Danger at Dunwater

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


U3 - The Final Enemy

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


T1 - Village of Hommlet

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


T2 - Nulb

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


T3 - Temple of Elemental Evil

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


T4 - Elemental Nodes

Adventure entry - incomplete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


G1 - The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


G2 - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl

Adventure entry - 100% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


G3 - Hall of the Fire Giant King

Adventure entry - 40% complete
Integration tweak - incomplete
Full QA pass - not started


Telon Campaign - Vanguard MMO

Compiled entire web info on realm - 100% complete
Initial QA pass to remove mechanics data - 100% complete
Organize continents by geography - 100% complete
complete POI by territory - 100% Complete
enter in all maps found - 100% complete
Create Hero Lab User file for realm - 75% complete, needs QA pass
Second QA pass for organization - 100% complete
Final QA pass for playability - 25% complete


Daede Campaign - Personal Creation

Initial history and world design - 100% complete
Playable race design and rough history - 100% complete
Organize continents by geography - 100% complete
Complete POI by territory - 33% Complete
Render maps in CC3+ - 33% complete
Create Hero Lab User file for realm - 100% complete, QA pass done
Second QA pass for organization - not started
Final QA pass for playability - not started



Screenie list - U1 - Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh

Screenie 1 - This is the base module. My entire design hinges around the Pen and paper model, that you buy/download/add modules. Think back, you bought game worlds, then purchased individual adventures.

Screenie 2 - Here is a look at the module break down. the Quest Topics are there as part of my integration tweak design. You can move any topic within a story line to your campaign world, however you maintain the "story relationship" to the module via this topic. So even if there was 25 locations, spread out now to your world, they would have a relationship link to this topic. Can be deleted if your not doing this.

Screenie 3 - Shows my entry of each monster in the adventure with its original game edition. I own all editions rule books.

Screenie 4 - Shows my entry for a "Keyed Location" using a topic of my own design. Of course I remove all unused sections for cleaner look. Missing is a visual aid, portfolio snippets. I use colors, Red(bold and underlined) to represent hostile creatures or trap, Purple (Bold and Italics) for non coin treasure. Treasure gets its own section to be revealed as coins are counted, items are identified or appraised. Since this takes time, it allows GM to reveal as it is done, and take what ever actions are required by the module (random encounters etc.). There are two GM fields for treasure value and XP value tracking. The challenge rating is there as some game systems use it like Pathfinder, so GM can use this if reskinning for use in a different rule set.

I have had to adjust some, U1 monster entries carried a lot of detail as you see in screenie 4. In G1-3 it contains HP a number of creatures. So in G1-3 instead of making creature in the encounter snippet also red, they are links to the actual monster entry (this module G1-3 is why I now do this, and I went back to U1-3 and added the MM1 monster topics), since you cannot run the encounter with out this info, unlike the U1-3 series which gives you enough. I have not decided to make either my normal yet, I will go back and QA my work when I do decide.

Screenie 5 - This was a fundamental topic/category addition I have made along with 4 others (Keyed location, my community, my individual, Monster entry, etc) to every realm I do. I have designed my own topics that better fit my personal views. No disrespect to LWD, but I just did not like the layout of the basic topics, however it was their genius that got me here. The biggest design choice was for me a GM section at the TOP, front and centre. GODS I hated as GM being a little off my game and not remembering a door had a trap on it and only seeing that in the text when the players were counting treasure! So having a GM section at the top relays a quick over view of what the GM MUST know right away.
**NOTE** If I just modified an existing, I simply added "My" to the name. This keeps the original intact, while making it easier to know what I have done. (i.e. My Community is a modified version of the Community topic)

The Read to Players speaks for it self. The Points of Interest is for finer detail, like what equipment is found on the a monster, what detects as magical, secret doors, what's in the cupboard, drawers, etc.. It is player info to be given, when players interact with the location. In a treasure room with lots of chests and traps, this section can be extensive.

Encounter Info speaks for it self.

Additional GM info is for the extra GM notes. Like story of a npc trapped in a room. Relevant info that the GM is given in module but does not pertain to the initial player interaction or info they are to be given.

The treasure section is for the GM to reveal as it is discovered. So in the POI section an entry maybe that a golem was wearing a necklace. then a follow up entry that the necklace detects as magical. here then is an entry with the necklaces actual ID, say:

The Necklace of Ynattirb Sraeps. This item is cursed, and once touched transforms the wearer into a washed up character class of their former glory. This has the affect of being equal too a loss of 75% of their current level, as if drained away by some negative force. This can only be reversed by killing the mythical elusive creature Crockernty Chissser, and bathing in this sad creatures blood. Only then can the necklace be removed.

[Exmortis]

Here are a few screenies from my Telon Project.

Screenie 1 - Shows my general organization of the world in RW.

Screenie 2 - Shows an example of a continental topic. notice I have entered all versions of the map I was able to find.

Screenie 3 - Here I show a drill down to Central Thesra, to the region of Misthaven Crossing. There is a lot going on in a Vanguard chunk or zone. In game this represented 1kmx1km. I will extrapolate this out to 50kmx50km. I have not decided if I want to recreate all the zones in CC3+.

Screenie 4 - Shows this historical timeline of Telon. The sad part is, each continent had many of what was called a "Lore Serial" written by Glip the Gnome. Most this work has long since been lost, but I have pieced together what I could from over two dozen sources.

Side note, Glip the Gnome is the son of late great artist Keith Parkinson. Keith was the art designer for Vanguard, and if you are a fan of his work, you can really see his influence in the game world design.

[MNBlockHead]

NICE!

I feel bad that these posts are hidden away in this "How long, Really" thread. This would be very useful to new users for examples of world and adventure setup.

[Exmortis]

NICE!

I feel bad that these posts are hidden away in this "How long, Really" thread. This would be very useful to new users for examples of world and adventure setup.

Thanks Man!!

I have considered making a you tube video tutorial series. Not because I feel my way is the best way, I think the true beauty of RW is it allows us all to have our own way, so to help those finding it daunting to get started, and realize that yes! you can modify and tweak to suit your taste.

[Vargr]

@Exmortis:
Very nice! Lots of good ideas some of which I will probably copy shamelessly (and most likely tweak a little for my usage).

@MNBlockHead:
I agree - it should really be placed in a different thread, so it would be easier to find.

We should probably have a forum exclusively meant for "I did it my way".

[Exmortis]

@Exmortis:
Very nice! Lots of good ideas some of which I will probably copy shamelessly (and most likely tweak a little for my usage).

@MNBlockHead:
I agree - it should really be placed in a different thread, so it would be easier to find.

We should probably have a forum exclusively meant for "I did it my way".

Shame? Not at all, if I was so intent on protecting my ideas I would not have put them here. Much of what you see comes from what I have seen here, with some thought, many failures, and a lot of trial and testing.

Though I do not always post, the info provided here by the RW users has ben helpful beyond calculation.

If anyone sees something that in turn sets the creative fires raging, or even just lightly flaming :D Then the goal of always paying forward is met.

[wurzel]

We should probably have a forum exclusively meant for "I did it my way".

Now that is a very good idea. There is always room for improvement. During the first couple of months using RW I spent more time changing the structures than creating new content. Whenever I find a good idea somewhere here in the forums that procdere starts again... so it would be very helpful to have all those brilliant stuff in one dedicated place.

[Exmortis]

Um did no one get this?

Ynattirb Sraeps

and

Crockernty Chissser

[thekwp]

Um did no one get this?

Ynattirb Sraeps

I refuse to get this one, or any of her albums.

and

Crockernty Chissser

This one I genuinely didn't get.

[MNBlockHead]

Um did no one get this?

Ynattirb Sraeps

and

Crockernty Chissser


I get the first, but the second is eluding me.

As for your thought to show how you set up your Realm in RealmWorks on You Tube, that would be a wonderful resource to have.

[Exmortis]

Chris Crocker :)

[adzling]

nice posts Exmortis.

I'd like to get this thread back on track, how long is it going to be, really?

[wurzel]

Chris Crocker :)

Never heard that name. Who is that?

[Chemlak]

Leave Britney alone!

[Exmortis]

do a you tube search. Or watch south park.

[Aaron]

Leave Britney alone!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP06Hom6bPAhVL8GMKHcOcATUQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fknowyourmeme.com%2Fmemes%2Fno-rage-face&psig=AFQjCNFJ5aI7mEk1XDtWgsoDEWzNQ_-ZBw&ust=1474745115859352

[Exmortis]

nice posts Exmortis.

I'd like to get this thread back on track, how long is it going to be, really?

A question everyone would love to answer, Rob and team more than us I am sure. But no matter what, this cannot be answered until the answer is "Today".

Customers always want finite answers, but when they themselves are in the hot seat, know that this is product suicide to do so.

Reality is, no one has the magic mirror, no one is an oracle, we are just people. I am sure LWD would have loved to see it all working some time ago, but best laid plans are just that - plans.

If Rob states a date, and it slips, the general customer will crucify him, if answers too far out, the general customer will crucify him. The average person just wants a pound of flesh.

I get it, you want it now, so do I, but just know that overtime these posts arise, and stir the proverbial pot, Rob or a team member has to take precious coding and design time to post big long diatribes, that in the end just state the same thing as they always do and will:

"When it is ready."

Really, the fact the team is still here, updates are coming, support calls are being answered, LWD is working on RW.

I can assure you of one fact, RW will only be a market success (that's profitable long term) if and when they get the content market. You do not make money on $50 investment and life time unlimited sync/storage for your users.

I am not trying to be a jerk or disrespectful, I just know the time cost of these events. Last year I was technical lead for a huge mobility project that also included a new OS to be supported in out 11,000+ node enterprise, and the biggest cost of valuable time was my CIO and his right hand parrot. At one time about a quarter of the way down the long road I had estimated for my management they had wasted over a week of my time. Asking questions that were answered in the weekly and monthly status reports (worse these management reports wasted about 5x that time), stopping me on my way to and from my lab (why I begged to be able to working there all day as opposed to being visible).

Every time we stir the pot, for the information they do provide in a timely enough manner, we exact a toll, that toll is paid in what otherwise would have been progress.

Finally I also, being a computer gamer, know what half baked releases are. They suck way worse then the wait, are three times longer to a stable release then staying in the proverbial oven. There will always be bugs, problems, but a little extra time and effort on the front end, will save three times that time in fixes and issues. Wish my CIO would understand this, at his pay grade I shouldn't have to explain it, and it shouldn't have been like talking to my cat. I personally would rather wait a month or two longer, then have a half baked release.

One thing is certain, the better the release, the faster they can respond to the support calls for the issues what will sneak through, and the faster everyone enjoys the forth coming features.

We all want the content market and/or the features it promises. But it is not like we paid $50 and have been left to rot. Sides until its released we get free sync and storage, I am saved almost the cost of the product itself in that alone, that's more then I usually get when companies miss their timelines, usually I am told to just wait.

At least I am waiting with a small token of the reality that it is a much bigger project then first understood. I am not defending them, so much as figure I am in for the penny and the pound now, may as well be gracious about it, because way I see it is, it benefits no one to be otherwise.

[adzling]

That's a mighty long way to say: "stop wasting our time by asking".

Which, when you think about it, is a rather odd response when the project is what, over 2 years late?

I'd ask you to refrain from stating the obvious and let the developers respond (or not) themselves.

Thanks

[AEIOU]

Methinks that if the devs were going to respond, they would have done so 12 pages and two months ago.

@Exmortis summed it up very well and I'd like to ask him (and others) to not refrain from responding. It's important that we all help the community understand that timeframes will not be published for a number of very good reasons. By encouraging the community to help the community stay informed, the devs can stay focused on the things that matter to us all -- rolling out RW updates.

[Chemlak]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP06Hom6bPAhVL8GMKHcOcATUQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fknowyourmeme.com%2Fmemes%2Fno-rage-face&psig=AFQjCNFJ5aI7mEk1XDtWgsoDEWzNQ_-ZBw&ust=1474745115859352

Now, you see, I'd go for the eminently more nerd-unique:

/jranger

[wurzel]

A question everyone would love to answer, Rob and team more than us I am sure. But no matter what, this cannot be answered until the answer is "Today".

Customers always want finite answers, but when they themselves are in the hot seat, know that this is product suicide to do so.

Reality is, no one has the magic mirror, no one is an oracle, we are just people. I am sure LWD would have loved to see it all working some time ago, but best laid plans are just that - plans.

If Rob states a date, and it slips, the general customer will crucify him, if answers too far out, the general customer will crucify him. The average person just wants a pound of flesh.

I get it, you want it now, so do I, but just know that overtime these posts arise, and stir the proverbial pot, Rob or a team member has to take precious coding and design time to post big long diatribes, that in the end just state the same thing as they always do and will:

"When it is ready."

Really, the fact the team is still here, updates are coming, support calls are being answered, LWD is working on RW.

...

Every time we stir the pot, for the information they do provide in a timely enough manner, we exact a toll, that toll is paid in what otherwise would have been progress.

I do not fully agree.

In my time I spent 30+ years managing small and big software projects. Although it were very different kinds of requirements one thing was common to all projects: they had a project plan. You are right, even the best laid plans are just plans, but the really good plans match reality almost 100%. Once we did a two-year-project with 50 developers and another 40 test and support people. We had a plan with a fixed delivery date from the beginning. The plan included every single piece of work that needed to be done, and also the expected amount of work days, names of the people who should do it, dependencies and relations to other deliverables and so on.

Of course we encountered a large number of problems. But since our plan included all dependencies, risks, resources spent and estimated, fulfillments and whatever had happened on our way, we had a very clear view of the consequences. And we reacted accordingly.

Yes, after two very busy years, at some time including 18 work hours a day 7 days a week, we did not hit the target. All in all we were one week late.

Creating an maintaining plans as the example above is a huge amount of work. Not every project is that big though. But every project needs at least some kind of plan, even if it is just a list of features. How else could you create a working piece of software? Modern agile projects have their backlog, and each task has an estimate of the work needed. If you don't know what you want to achieve you will get nothing.

One of my former CIOs had a saying: "risk management is project management for grown-ups." I'm sure the Lone Wolves have an idea what exactly they want to achieve. Hopefully they also have a plan how to get there. But then I don't understand the silence. Giving a short statement should be possible once a month. Didn't they hire a new marketing person?

[Grey Mage]

I think the difference, Wurzel, is that as you said, you worked on very large projects. LWD is a small shop, less than 10 people total (I believe). Having someone take a couple of hours a week to pull in the current status of everything, then articulate all of that into a 5 or 6 paragraph summary takes away time from working on the actual project.

Yes, LWD did hire someone new, but at the time they did so, someone said it was going to take a few months to bring them up to speed on things.

Things are moving along. Slowly but they are moving. And yes, it has been 2 years. Two long years. But if you look at how far the code has come since that first release there is definitely progress. We (not just they) are getting there. They hammer out some code and then we, the betatesters and users, hammer the crap out of it and it gets better. We just have to be patient. Which is difficult since most of us have grown up in a world of "I want it now!" expectations.

All of that said, I think we should look at HeroLab. It started out pretty rough and small but LWD has stuck with it and turned it into the industry standard for character creation and management software. Let's give them the opportunity to do the same with Realm Works.

Or, I suppose, we can all go back to PIMs and using Wikis on a stick... :)

[Exmortis]

Once we did a two-year-project with 50 developers and another 40 test and support people.

Wow yeah because LWD has 50 devs and 40 test and support staff.........

[Chemlak]

Wow yeah because LWD has 50 devs and 40 test and support staff.........

Rob is reading this and going "God, yes, please!"

[Silveras]

Everyone has a different degree of patience.

RealmWorks is coming up on the FOUR year anniversary of the launch of the Kickstarter (Jan 2017).

Is RealmWorks late? Yes
Has LoneWolf given specific dates in the past? Yes
Has LoneWolf failed to meet those dates? Yes
Could it be said that LoneWolf's date estimates were often too optimistic? Yes
Has LoneWolf been raked over the coals for failing to meet those dates? Yes
Is LoneWolf likely to give specific future dates again? No
Has LoneWolf suffered unexpected setbacks? Yes
Was it a planning failure not to be able to handle them? Maybe
Is demanding frequent updates going to make the work go any faster? No
Is getting frequent updates going to make the work go any faster? No
Is getting frequent updates going to make the work go any slower? Maybe
Is demanding updates going to make some people feel better? Probably
Is getting more frequent updates going to make people feel better? Probably not, as the updates likely won't change except to report another delay. How many ways, and how many times, can Rob say "we're working on it, and it will be out SOON (tm)" ?

The problem is that "SOON (tm)" no longer means soon... it now means someday.

As frustrating as it is, all we can do is to try to be as patient as we can be while LoneWolf gets the work done, and use the features that are in-place today.

The problem LoneWolf has is the hit to credibility. "Soon" is now a laughable promise. I understand, as I indicated above, that dates are not forthcoming.. but, really, LoneWolf needs to get themselves organized to better plan and communicate timeframes for future updates. Silence on future dates in the immediate aftermath of failing to meet promised dates is understandable, but I don't think it is acceptable as a long-term policy. At some point, LoneWolf has to get better at predicting dates, and meeting them. That will likely not be until after the Content Market is finally done... but it is something I think has to happen before the next major update comes out "soon (tm)",

[MaxSupernova]

In the kickstarter video it was "3 years in development".

So, we're actually talking **SEVEN** years in development, and the primary feature is not available, and others (*cough*calendars*cough*) that were in the kickstarter have been removed.

>The average person just wants a pound of flesh.

Nope. The average person just wants the freaking software to do what it was advertised to do after a 3+ year wait.

[Silveras]

In the kickstarter video it was "3 years in development".

So, we're actually talking **SEVEN** years in development, and the primary feature is not available, and others (*cough*calendars*cough*) that were in the kickstarter have been removed.


Nobody put any money into purchasing or backing RealmWorks before the kickstarter; therefore, I don't think the 3 years leading up to the kickstarter can be complained about. Nothing concrete was promised until the kickstarter, so the only timeframe people can legitimately claim angst over is post-kickstarter (imho).

[MaxSupernova]

Oh, I agree. I just detailed the 7 years so the recent front end recode and the lack of the "big feature" could be seen in context of the life of the software. They've had 7 years to do the major things they talked about. We've only been waiting for 3 years.

And I also find it rather amusing that we're discussing the fact that it's only THREE YEARS overdue, as if that were actually acceptable.

[AEIOU]

It's a good thing we have a new public relations person onboard at LWD to help manage our expectations and to throw us carrots. With GenCon coming up, I'm sure we'll have a major update soon.

Yes, I'm being facetious. I hope the ability to share of files is moving forward quickly and smoothly.

[Exmortis]

Oh, I agree. I just detailed the 7 years so the recent front end recode and the lack of the "big feature" could be seen in context of the life of the software. They've had 7 years to do the major things they talked about. We've only been waiting for 3 years.

And I also find it rather amusing that we're discussing the fact that it's only THREE YEARS overdue, as if that were actually acceptable.

You have two crowds here, not one. The kickstarter crowd (I am not one of them) and the purchase since release crowd (I am one of these).

So the kickstarter promises mean little to me, because they were not made to me.

On top of that, RW is the best product I have ever used hands down. bar none, for a world creationist. I realize I am probably in the minority, but I don't play canned worlds, I have, since like high school, always created my own campaign worlds. This meant showing up to the game with as many as seven binders.

Add HL into the RW fold; now its a computer laptop and tablet. Players can sync historical play info, no more "Who was that guy from that city that gave us that info?".

RW for me personally is missing only two things, proper custome calendars, and ability to merge/copy realms. Calendars is easily done with out RW, really would love it to be there, but not really and endgame issue. I really really am looking forward to being able to copy realms or info between realms. Far more than calendars.

Side note, the Sept newsletter had a screenie from a product other than Runelords..... That to me springs hope, that the initial content market is getting close. But, RW offers me so much I never had? Delays for these are a minor irritant.

[MNBlockHead]

I'm in the same boat as Exmortis. Not having backed it on kickstarter, I find the complaints tiresome, but not as tiresome as having to wait years for features that may have been deciding factors in the decision to back the kickstarter. And I do have to thank the original backers for helping support making this great piece of software come into being.

[monsterfurby]

There is another divide though - those who would actually use the content market (namely players from a more module-oriented, D&D/Pathfinder-focused gaming culture) and those who probably won't (players from a more storygame-heavy gaming culture who wouldn't play adventures made by others or published commercially). I realize that the reasons for focusing on the content market are commercial first and foremost, but to some, the delay it causes in fixing or expanding on other aspects of the software is problematic.

[wurzel]

...for a world creationist. I realize I am probably in the minority, but I don't play canned worlds, I have, since like high school, always created my own campaign worlds.
...
RW for me personally is missing only two things, proper custome calendars, and ability to merge/copy realms. Calendars is easily done with out RW, really would love it to be there, but not really and endgame issue. I really really am looking forward to being able to copy realms or info between realms. Far more than calendars.

It may be a minority, but we are not alone. For me it is absolutely frustrating that I have to wait for a feature I don't need and will probably never use (the content market) to get what I need (copy/merge/extract/...).

I know a lot of people here see it differently. And I fully understand the intention of making money that drives LWD's decisions. Still, it is frustrating.

[kbs666]

It may be a minority, but we are not alone. For me it is absolutely frustrating that I have to wait for a feature I don't need and will probably never use (the content market) to get what I need (copy/merge/extract/...).

I know a lot of people here see it differently. And I fully understand the intention of making money that drives LWD's decisions. Still, it is frustrating.
Even as a world creator I hold out hope that I will be able to use the CM.

While I certainly won't be buying whole modules, AP's or setting material there certainly are people out there producing things like individual setting pieces, villages, taverns, ships etc., that I hope I can occasionally drop into my world.

Further if the CM is sophisticated enough to let you really pick and choose what to take from what you buy there are some usable bits and pieces in some modules and AP's.

[wurzel]

Even as a world creator I hold out hope that I will be able to use the CM.

Ah, yes. I might have one notable exception. If they ever manage to publish Ravenloft here in the content market I'll probably be among the first to buy it.

While most published adventures are simply boring (at least as far as I know them as a player) Ravenloft in all variations is simply great entertainment.

[Exmortis]

Ah, yes. I might have one notable exception. If they ever manage to publish Ravenloft here in the content market I'll probably be among the first to buy it.

While most published adventures are simply boring (at least as far as I know them as a player) Ravenloft in all variations is simply great entertainment.

LOL I just decided to shelve the Q1-3 series in lieu of entering I6 Ravenloft into RW, my all time favorite 1e adventure.

[Silveras]

Just to point out that there is more to the Content Market then published adventures.


Your ability to copy/merge/etc. is based on the Content Market
System-agnostic tools can be published (example: "Masks")
Rules system references can be published (Mechanics-only Realms for merging into your adventure Realms)


So, yeah, the Content Market is a big part of how RealmWorks can stay financially viable for LoneWolf to continue to work on it, but it is also necessary for other important uses.

[adzling]

my main reason for wanting the content market is so we can get the web view of realms.

I'm dying over here not being able to share content i've spent countless hours inputting with the rest of our gaming group...

[Pollution]

Deleted

[daplunk]

Doesn't the Web view allow instant sharing? That was the impression I got from the demo video.

Web view is the feature I'm hanging for. I've had to use obsidian portal to replicate the articles the players need access to. PITA.

[Silveras]

The last I recall seeing on the topic was that "live" update to the server may be considered as a future feature. There were no commitments made on that score that I recall.

Unless that changed/changes, a GM would have to exit the Realm and sync to the server for any changes to get to where the Web View would see it.

RealmWorks is currently NOT intended for "instant update"... Rob has mentioned, for example, the use case where the GM clicks reveal on something not intended... by requiring a sync step, the GM has the chance to catch and correct something like that before the Players see it.

There have been some vocal advocates, enough that I imagine a "live-sync" option might appear on the user survey once the Content Market is released.

EDIT:
For the record, even having Web View access may not be the solution some people anticipate. I provided my players with Player Licenses ... and they still refused to use RealmWiorks.

Two were on MACs and did not want to run a virtual OS for it.
One is technically challenged and may get into it from the GM standpoint someday.
Another doesn't want to have to look at anything other than Email.

So it may prove that the lack of web access at the moment is an excuse rather than a reason. Some people will still be reluctant or refuse even with web access.

[Pollution]

Deleted

[AEIOU]

Methinks that if folks think "web" means "instant gratification" they may be sorely disappointed.... You'll notice that Rob hasn't chimed in. I'm glad to see he's focusing on producing rather than firefighting and explaining.

There are some hidden benefits the web version will bring which also may be the things that are causing delays. The internet is like that proverbial barn door. Once it's opened, lots of unexpected things can happen, and you can't put them back in. They get one chance to do it right. No pressure.

[Viking2054]

If the GM is using the web version instead of the desktop version, wouldn't that be pretty close to live sync? I mean the minute the GM clicks submit inside his web browser the server would have to update. It might still be a multi-step process where GM enters information and submits, then has to click the share buttons needed for the players to be able to see it... Last step would be for the players to refresh their web view and look for the new information.

[Silveras]

Web Access as mentioned so far is a lighter, less feature-rich version of the software.

Primarily, web access has been mentioned for Players. I think Rob has mentioned the potential for GMs to have a web version, but I don't recall there being any solid commitments.

In any case, the web version is likely to be less feature-rich (for both Players and GMs). Rob said as much about the Player web access previously, alluding to the Player Edition desktop client remaining more feature-rich, such as getting access to new features first. It is likely a similar disparity would exist for any web-based GM version.

[Viking2054]

I understand that the web version has less features then the full application. However, if I remember correctly, web access was mentioned for both players and GM's. Theoretically, I should be able to do all my detail work on the full application then pull it up in a GM view while running the actual session. I think simple things like reveal buttons should be achievable in the web version. That would allow the GM to run the session from a web browser even if he created the material in the full application.

[wurzel]

I understand that the web version has less features then the full application. However, if I remember correctly, web access was mentioned for both players and GM's. Theoretically, I should be able to do all my detail work on the full application then pull it up in a GM view while running the actual session. I think simple things like reveal buttons should be achievable in the web version. That would allow the GM to run the session from a web browser even if he created the material in the full application.

If the reveal buttons are shown the content to be revealed must also be clear. At least if you have more than one button per topic. Will there be different web versions for DMs and players?

[Lyvean]

The web version is keeping RW for being useful to players. Players can't remember all the details of the world, but being able to pop into web view into their tablets and check the lore of a place or any other info they need instead of the DM always telling them what they know and what they don't would make the game much more fluid and organic.

Also, it is fair to say that RW development has been a big disappointment. No content market, no calendars, no export functions and so many logical improvements needed and yet we have seen very little. I was never a kickstarter backer - I didn't know it existed- but as a customer I am quite disappointed. Imagine the people that have been here from the beginning.

I feel for the devs, it is not an easy job, that is certain. But the whole management of development and marketing has been really, really bad.

[kbs666]

Also, it is fair to say that RW development has been a big disappointment. No content market, no calendars, no export functions and so many logical improvements needed and yet we have seen very little. I was never a kickstarter backer - I didn't know it existed- but as a customer I am quite disappointed. Imagine the people that have been here from the beginning.

I feel for the devs, it is not an easy job, that is certain. But the whole management of development and marketing has been really, really bad.
LWD is a very small company supporting 3 software products. RW is a completely new and truly innovative program. Of course deployment of new features is going to take time.

What we have now is a very usable and useful product. I use it every week for my game and it has cut my prep time for a session by at least half. The integration with HL and other features have made adventure design so much faster I'm not sure how to even quantify the difference. I know that it has been well over a year since I've needed to rush through the design of an encounter or such just to have material ready for that weeks game.

Yes, there are features I'd like to get eventually but I have a lot of trouble with people bashing RW as it is right now. Are you even using RW at all? How can you not love this program and the reduction in work load it has brought to running a campaign?

[wurzel]

LWD is a very small company supporting 3 software products. RW is a completely new and truly innovative program. Of course deployment of new features is going to take time.

I can't hear that kind of excuse any more. In such a case 99.99% of software companies around the world either hire new developers or freelancers. That is certainly no good solution dealing with a 3-month project but in the case of RW the waiting time is measured in years.

In my opinion Lyvean is right. This is bad management.

[kbs666]

I can't hear that kind of excuse any more. In such a case 99.99% of software companies around the world either hire new developers or freelancers. That is certainly no good solution dealing with a 3-month project but in the case of RW the waiting time is measured in years.

In my opinion Lyvean is right. This is bad management.
Have you not considered that LWD may not have the revenue to hire new developers?

The fact is that the user base for those 3 programs is miniscule. Therefore the revenue stream is small. That is clearly why they are putting so much effort into the CM. It will expand the number of people who will use RW and increase revenue.

I would rather have a company provide quality products slowly, HL is clearly the best character management tool around and RW is literally the only program of its kind, than have one that expands recklessly and goes out business leaving me with orphaned products.

[Silveras]

kbs666 and wurzel are both "right" in some ways.

RealmWorks is a new and innovative program. It has the potential to be a new publishing medium (though being a closed system has issues with scope there). It has offered many useful features from the initial public release, and made GMing easier for many.

But it has also suffered from mis-steps, primarily (as I see it) in overly-optimistic release plans. One person being in too many critical paths is another issue. LoneWolf has learned somewhat from these, and at least stopped giving concrete dates for releases before they are ready. That we still have "soon" not really meaning soon is an issue.

Clobbering the developers is not going to help, though. They are doing what they can with the resources they have. The messaging could be better, certainly... so that we don't get "coming soon" unless it really means in the short term (3-4 months at most, I'd say).

At this point, the "coming soon" credibility is shot. LoneWolf needs to be absolutely certain they can meet the next "coming soon" (as in, be ready to start the process the day the 'coming soon' announcement is made) in order to build that confidence back up.

I'd almost be ready to advise Rob to only announce the next "coming soon" when he has TWO releasable versions, each with demonstrable new features. Announce the first, and keep to its schedule. When he again has TWO releasable versions, announce what was the second.. and so on.. so as to always have one more finished, releasable version available in order to keep something like a schedule going.

[Viking2054]

kbs666 and wurzel are both "right" in some ways.

RealmWorks is a new and innovative program. It has the potential to be a new publishing medium (though being a closed system has issues with scope there). It has offered many useful features from the initial public release, and made GMing easier for many.

But it has also suffered from mis-steps, primarily (as I see it) in overly-optimistic release plans. One person being in too many critical paths is another issue. LoneWolf has learned somewhat from these, and at least stopped giving concrete dates for releases before they are ready. That we still have "soon" not really meaning soon is an issue.

Clobbering the developers is not going to help, though. They are doing what they can with the resources they have. The messaging could be better, certainly... so that we don't get "coming soon" unless it really means in the short term (3-4 months at most, I'd say).

At this point, the "coming soon" credibility is shot. LoneWolf needs to be absolutely certain they can meet the next "coming soon" (as in, be ready to start the process the day the 'coming soon' announcement is made) in order to build that confidence back up.

I'd almost be ready to advise Rob to only announce the next "coming soon" when he has TWO releasable versions, each with demonstrable new features. Announce the first, and keep to its schedule. When he again has TWO releasable versions, announce what was the second.. and so on.. so as to always have one more finished, releasable version available in order to keep something like a schedule going.

I agree that Realm Works has great potential. But as I see it, the biggest misstep is not the 'coming soon' announcements which are PR problems. The late change from RTF format to HTML format was a huge time sink that should of been implemented much sooner then it was. That should of become a top retrofit priority once they made the decision to implement a web version, in my opinion.

I think if people knew that LWD was sitting on an extra patch/release would just piss them off. You propose basically not releasing a patch until the next patch after that one was ready to also be released, holding one in reserve all the time. If I knew that was happening I'd be rather peeved. I'd much rather have a better monthly communication cycle where we are told what has been worked on, and its status, over the past month along with what is planned to be worked on over the next month. I think people would feel better if we knew a little bit more about what was going on. I don't need weekly updates, but I need better monthly communications then what comes in the monthly newsletter that covers all of LWD's products, of which I only use two products. In that regard, I am hoping the new communications person will help out significantly.

Personally, I'm in wait and see mode for RW, not necessarily because of problems or missing features in RW. My two main issues for not using the program significantly are personal. First, my gaming group is taking a sabbatical, so to speak and we haven't had a regular game in about a year. Second, as a GM for 25+ years, I'm burned out, frazzled, and uninspired to create a game world and the scenarios that go with it at the moment and so is the other major GM in my group.

[Silveras]

I think if people knew that LWD was sitting on an extra patch/release would just piss them off. You propose basically not releasing a patch until the next patch after that one was ready to also be released, holding one in reserve all the time. If I knew that was happening I'd be rather peeved.

That's why I said "I'd almost be ready to advise..." :) It would be seen as somewhat dishonest.

[MNBlockHead]

If it wasn't for kickstarter and the promises made there, they would be under no obligation to give any updates--and I would prefer that they did not. No need to announce any new features until they release a new version.

I forget which exact items that were promised in the kickstarter are not in the current version (content market and specific content to be awarded and maybe calendars), but when they have finally get to the point where they have delivered what was promised to the KS backers, I hope we can move beyond this dysfunctional backer-developer relationship.

[Exmortis]

Just so every KSr here is aware of what exactly was promised:

Risks and challenges

Every project has risks, and software projects are notorious for delays. The key difference for Realm Works is that most of the work on Realm Works has already been completed, so there’s virtually no risk to product delivery.

Lone Wolf Development has been at the forefront of developing tabletop gaming software for over a decade. Our first product, Army Builder, had a profound impact on the tabletop miniatures arena and still reigns as the industry standard against which all other roster construction tools are compared. For RPGs, our Hero Lab product has won two ENnie Awards for Best Game Aid and is the most complete and powerful character management software for game systems including Pathfinder, Shadowrun, and many more. With Realm Works, we're simply taking things up another notch, and, as you can see in our video, we're already close to completion.

As with any software project, there is a chance that the release of Realm Works could be delayed, either due to problems on our part (a delay in hiring additional staff, for example) or because additional functionality is needed before the product is ready. This could impact the release of Realm Works to the public.

It’s also possible that we could face unexpected challenges in building Realm Works’ cloud capabilities. Building a multi-user server system is a lot of work and involves a lot of complexity. However, we've spent a lot of time coming up with a solid design for this, and have good tools to build it, so we’re confident that we can make this happen.

With your support, we can put the last building blocks in place and bring Realm Works to gamers everywhere!


This statement means, that their promises come with a statement that, they may slip, miss or not make any date they attempt.

So they have not missed nor broken a singe promise, as they are still working on RW. Better than so many other CF projects, you all have a working product in your hands, just missing a few key features, that are still being worked on.

Now do a search on how many such projects end up with it all spent blow, cars and hookers?

Suddenly things look pretty good here.

[Kathorus]

Just so every apologist here knows, it's getting just as tiresome to have complaints dismissed about a project that hasn't even delivered all of its key functionality after having been funded for three and a half years, as it is to see those complaints.

[Exmortis]

Just so every everyone who posts whining about it, it is just as tiresome. I am ecstatic about what RW does for me, what offers me, and what the future holds.

So we are going to have to just live with each other and agree to be on opposite sides.

[kbs666]

Just so every apologist here knows, it's getting just as tiresome to have complaints dismissed about a project that hasn't even delivered all of its key functionality after having been funded for three and a half years, as it is to see those complaints.
I'm not dismissing your complaints. I just do not understand why you aren't using RW as it is. The more I use it the more indispensable it becomes.

[Kathorus]

I, specifically, am not really complaining, am a Dire Wolf backer, use the product sporadically trying to make it work for me, and hope the things I'm eager for get resolved and implemented so that I can really start using it, and come on the forum from time to time to see what's brewing.

When someone complains about something on this forum and a non-employee answers that post with "it's very complex, be glad they are still working on it and not snorting coke like other kickstarter's, you'll get your stuff eventually, if you read this disclaimer they never really said they'd give you anything for your money, etc..." ad nauseum, it leaves a bad feeling with me for the company.

[Grey Mage]

Have to jump back in here...

I do agree strongly with the idea that using RW in the now is very important. It has its flaws and even its undelivered features; but with all that said it is still the best tool out there for really managing a campaign. And it has a learning curve... the time spent just mastering the present features will always be a +1.

IF a GM is only doing one offs and such, it can quickly become the core reference they need. Especially for less popular game systems. I mean for PF and 5e, there are websites and wikis dedicated to giving them easy reference tools, saving so much time in not having to dig through PDFs (or even worse dozens of paper references).

For the GM who has a massive homebrew campaign (based off a popular system or not), it allows him or her to put away the notebooks, binders and even boxes of file cards away (once all of that material is inputted into RW of course) and really focus on the pleasure of running the game.

Folks, I have done it all; from binders (full of xerox'd pages from Dragon because bringing the entire mags would have meant dragging a footlocker to the game every week) and 3"x5" cards (several thousand of them at one time) to PDFs and wikis on a (memory) stick. I could never go back after using RW. Simple as that. There are just too many things it already does that make my life as a GM and a player easier. And it promises to just get better and better.

Sure it has features that remain undelivered (years later), yes it has suffered from misplanning and management at times, but it is not vaporware!!!! LWD is delivering what they promised. And putting up with a bunch of repetitious whining while doing it. I sometimes joke with my players/friends that if just half the time people spent bitching about stuff here was given over submitting bug reports and helpful messages, RW would be the best campaign management/gaming software on the planet... then we all end up laughing and saying "But wait a minute... it already is!"

I mean seriously, if it is so bad, who do the complainers and nay'sayers keep using it? Because they spent $40 or $50 bucks in a KS and 'want what they paid for?' If that is only time you have felt hard done in spending a bit of money, I am impressed. I have seen dozens of times where vaporware was promised and then never came to fruition. Anyone remember Tools that were bundled with the PHB when D&D 3.0 from Wizards came out? Or their promised online character generator? Or online mapping tool? I almost shudder as I type "GleeMax?"

Seriously, let's let LWD do what they need to do (ie., create great software) and try to dial back the whining and complaining. After all, for those of us in the US of A, we have something far better to whine and complain about... the current election cycle! :)

This is longer than I had intended, and it was not my intention to tweak anyone's nose (well maybe a little bit). Just a bit weary of the constant negativity of late. I would close with the suggestion that you take a walk with your dog (always works for me), call a friend and yak about a great gaming session you had a few years back (ok, decades back for some of us) or jump into your current game when the next session comes around and just let go of all the crap and feel the joy that the game and its camaraderie brings to you. So much better than focusing on anything negative in your life... especially the current election cycle!

[daplunk]

Looks like we might know something by late next week.

Realm Works Update
As you might have noticed, the last month has been very quiet for Realm Works. While it may seem as if there’s little going on, we’re actually putting in long hours to bring you many of the major components you’ve been patiently waiting for.

We aren’t quite there yet, and you know we shy away from giving dates these days, but—just this once—keep an eye out on our forums and watch for a special news announcement late next week! We expect to have exciting information regarding our imminent content market, key new features, and even release details!

Our heart-felt thanks to all our supporters who have demonstrated incredible patience while we worked through bugs, enhancements, and seemingly every complication under the sun. At long last, we’re almost there…

[Gwydion]

Looks like we might know something by late next week.

Yep. Saw that to in my email. Anxious to see the announcement!

[Dhrakken]

Yep. Saw that to in my email. Anxious to see the announcement!

Aren't we all? I'm going to hold off manually inputting any more content (started from scratch 2 days ago) until I see what the word is on the content market.

[Tharmiones]

My bet on the potential "content" of the announcement is:
"We are almost ready for the release of the content market. We are making great progress so stay tuned for the next update in the followin weeks"

[Inglorin]

My bet on the potential "content" of the announcement is:
"We are almost ready for the release of the content market. We are making great progress so stay tuned for the next update in the followin weeks"

You are forgetting: "This new release (headed your way really soon) won't show many user facing additions to the software, but we did something very important in the background. This is all gonna help in the long run. Be prepared. Soon."

[Acenoid]

The community manager position is no longer vacant, sorry guys.

Jokes aside, LWD communicated a lot in past. It's good that they concentrate on the things ahead and present the CM in one of the upcoming releases. So I am intrigued how it will look like...

[BJ]

Good morning everyone!

As someone already shared, we will have exciting news updates late next week! I know we've been really quiet as of late and there have certainly been delays but you'll have plenty of answers to your questions next week. Just a bit longer! Let's try to stay positive while the team is working hard to get your content market and other features out as soon as possible! :)

Thanks,
BJ

[Grey Mage]

Welcome to the melee, errr forums BJ.

Anxiously awaiting next week.

[BJ]

Haha! Thanks!

Me too!

[EightBitz]

On to a less contentious topic, there was the VP debate last night ...

[Chemlak]

On to a less contentious topic, there was the VP debate last night ...

I see what you did there...

[Aaron]

On to a less contentious topic, there was the VP debate last night ...

Ba-dum TSH!

[BJ]

On to a less contentious topic, there was the VP debate last night ...

Haha!! Too funny!

We need an amused smiley...

[dentaa]

Ok, new to Realm Works here.. But I am a software developer. (I do not work for, know or ever even talked to any one at this company) I do custom databases. I have developing now for around a decade and my co-workers for about 70 years combined. I can tell you one thing, deadlines to release a product are the surest way to get a shitty product. It is impossible to predict when something will be ready. One glitch or unforeseen hurdle can set a project back weeks... Yes, its nice to guesstimate when the software will be ready, but if you hold a developer to that date you get what is ready at that time.

There is a maxim in software development.

The Triangle... There are three elements:
Speed
Cost
Quality

You get to pick two. You can have it Fast and cheap but Quality will lack.
You can have it Fast and High Quality but it will not be cheap.
or in this case....
You can have it Cheap and High Quality.

I can assure you, if I was designing this software for retail sales I would have probably started out around $400/license and am grateful they didn't.
So before we all call them a variety of names, realize that the product they put out is frigging incredible.... and they are actively seeking to improve it. and if you have programmed a line of code in your life you know what bitch it is to integrate new modules of code into an existing piece of software.
Finally, a friend of mine writes games (my first DM). He is a leader in the industry. He finally after years of development he finally said this about release dates.
"I will release it when its done."

So to the wizards at WolfLair, please continue on and keep up the great work. I was getting tired of DMing and about to toss it all in when I discovered your software and in the process rediscovered my campaign and have found it fun again. Thanks

[King Chicken]

So to the wizards at WolfLair, please continue on and keep up the great work. I was getting tired of DMing and about to toss it all in when I discovered your software and in the process rediscovered my campaign and have found it fun again. Thanks

I believe, for copyright reasons, Wolf Lair cannot answer to the name "wizards", much like Paizo cannot use the terms Illithid or Beholder. :)

[daplunk]

Wizards would be an issue but wizards?

[LeeSmith]

Haha! Thanks!

Me too!

Yes welcome...
Can I ask about the Spotlight Series? I love that series...

Ok, I'll ask... What's up with it?
When can we expect a new installment?

:)

[Kathorus]

Wish I could find a job at one of these companies I hear about without deadlines or product release schedules, I'm getting tired of being paid to produce results. lol

[MNBlockHead]

There is a maxim in software development.

The Triangle... There are three elements:
Speed
Cost
Quality

You get to pick two. You can have it Fast and cheap but Quality will lack.
You can have it Fast and High Quality but it will not be cheap.
or in this case....
You can have it Cheap and High Quality.



This. It is an old project-management joke, but it is true.

[MNBlockHead]

Wish I could find a job at one of these companies I hear about without deadlines or product release schedules, I'm getting tired of being paid to produce results. lol

Simple. Go into business on your own.

RealmWorks has produced results. Results I was happy to purchase for what I think is a great deal.

[BJ]

Yes welcome...
Can I ask about the Spotlight Series? I love that series...

Ok, I'll ask... What's up with it?
When can we expect a new installment?

:)

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to look into the spotlight series. I've been swamped with the pending news updates, new marketing plans, and other internal items. Hopefully all that will settle down soon and we can see about it then!

[Kathorus]

Yeah, I'm happy with all my LWD purchases.

I'm just always amazed at some of the logic used to defend what is an incomplete and extremely late product. When the company comes out (and they have) said why they're late and have fallen behind where they expected to be, I respect that. When non-employees defend this incomplete and lateness with "you should just be quiet and wait, you don't know the complexities of this, etc...", It gets under my skin.

On the flip side, if I had a real beef with LWD, I'd be talking to them - not complaining about it on a forum.

[Exmortis]

Yeah, I'm happy with all my LWD purchases.

I'm just always amazed at some of the logic used to defend what is an incomplete and extremely late product. When the company comes out (and they have) said why they're late and have fallen behind where they expected to be, I respect that. When non-employees defend this incomplete and lateness with "you should just be quiet and wait, you don't know the complexities of this, etc...", It gets under my skin.

On the flip side, if I had a real beef with LWD, I'd be talking to them - not complaining about it on a forum.

So you instead of adding anything constructive or useful, you just troll?

So it is OK to post whines and complaints, not OK to post positively?

Can't have your cake and eat it I am afraid, either its OK to post your opinion, or it is not. I freely believe both sides of the paying coin have the right to voice theirs.

However it is an open forum, do not like the responses? send privately.

[Exmortis]

Yes welcome...
Can I ask about the Spotlight Series? I love that series...

Ok, I'll ask... What's up with it?
When can we expect a new installment?

:)

Agreed, they were very good!!! My watching them several times is what gave me such a great appreciation for RW and what can be done. with out them I am 100% I would not have near the work done I have so far.

Would love to see more! +10,000!

I6 Ravenloft RW entry now 100% completed, Just awaits a full QA pass now.

[rob]

EVERYBODY READ THIS!!!

So you instead of adding anything constructive or useful, you just troll?

So it is OK to post whines and complaints, not OK to post positively?

Can't have your cake and eat it I am afraid, either its OK to post your opinion, or it is not. I freely believe both sides of the paying coin have the right to voice theirs.

However it is an open forum, do not like the responses? send privately.

Whoa! Take a deep breath there, Exmortis.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and Kathorus is simply voicing his/hers, just like you and everyone else get to share your own. Kathorus didn't directly challenge anyone specifically on the forums, nor did s/he do any trolling from my perspective. You, on the other hand, just did (the direct challenge).

Soooo.....

Everybody here needs to take a minute and re-read their posts before pressing the submit button. If you've got any attitude, edit your post. If anyone fails to review and edit before posting, they will be given a "timeout" on the forums.

This is a contentious subject, with lots of different opinions that cover the whole spectrum. All of them are valid. Unlike lots of company sites, we allow everyone to voice those opinions here. But there are rules and limits. Most importantly, everyone MUST RESPECT the opinions of others, even if they don't agree. Failure to maintain decorum and respect is grounds for getting forcibly silenced. And if enough people can't maintain that decorum and respect, we'll need to rethink allowing everyone to voice their opinions. I don't want to have to do that, but I will if people can't play nice together here.

Consider this a shot across the bow. For everyone.

Relax. Breathe. Then discuss politely. And everybody is happy. :)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled sharing of different (often conflicting) opinions...

Thanks!!

[Kathorus]

LWD has an open forum policy, people come on here from time to time and are unhappy with whatever. These already unhappy customers are almost always met by a group of other users that call them "whiners" and act as if they shouldn't feel the way they do. This group runs the risk of turning unhappy customers of LWD into former customers of LWD. That's my simple, succinct point.

[adzling]

I agree with Kathorus, I've learned to love Realmworks despite the glaring problems, deficiencies and continual delays.

However whenever I say anything less salutatory than "congrats!" the hardcore defenders/ apologists come out to silence any criticism.

It's trolling at it's worst imho.

[Chemlak]

You are all entitled to your opinions.

Not my fault that you're all wrong.

But I will try not to hold your wrongheadedness against you.

Or you.

You, though, make it very hard.

(That's what she said)

You're pretty awesome, in the other hand.

And you, yes, you, over there in the corner, you want calendars. You can stay.

You, on the other side of the curtain, don't care about calendars. You can stay, too.

We all want RW, fully functional and awesome, we just have differing ideas of how long we'll tolerate not getting it. And that's cool.

[nodice]

Lol, what a thread. So substance, much angry.

I still remember the first time I saw a preview of RealmWorks. I was blown away. There is no doubt that it is amazing software. It's designed to facilitate *world-building* after all, and that is a fantastically large endeavor from the get-go. Knowing that RW was still in development, I purchased it anyway, despite being unemployed and quite poor at the time. My eager anticipation mounted to excitement as I opened the program and started exploring around it's inner workings for the first time. My excitement soon turned to anxiety over the incredibly complex array of tools as I wondered if I would ever get the chance to understand and use them all. I overcame that anxiety by deciding to use and practice on what I could understand by inputting as much of my campaign setting as I could. As much work as that can be, it is rewarding to see the matrices that you once contained in your head being backed up onto a third party that you can see and use.

Whilst it would be possible to end the story there and leave it at 'wonderful software, awesome experience' etc, most, dare I say, all people are inclined towards wanting more and better and many of those people will subconsciously be thinking of process improvements as they use any software, or even, perform any action. It is a part of seeing the potential behind something rather than just accepting things at face value.

Similarly, even without a mind incapable of settling on something as finished, when one finds specific elements that they would consider core to their gaming experience that are not supported by RW, then a compromise of needs/wants sets in. The amount that one must compromise whilst using RW is weighed up, either subconsciously or actively, against alternative options for campaign management.

During the last year that I have been patiently inputting my campaign setting into RW, I have been playing in games with friends who have purchased licenses or subscriptions to other similar-yet-different pieces of game enhancing software; in one game we use Fantasy Grounds; in another we use roll20.net. I was continually impressed by what my friends were able to do using their respective gaming tools, and throughout every session, I could not help but subconsciously track which parts of what my friends were bringing to the table I would or would not be able to do with RW.

Now, at this point I know a lot of you are thinking 'but those tools are different to RW, they are tabletop management, and RW is campaign management, they were never designed to be compared.' I am aware of this, but the truth of it is, that whilst RW is almost exclusively campaign management with a few tools which could be tweaked for tabletop management, those other 2, whilst being predominantly about tabletop management, still contain campaign management elements, limited but robust. And my friends have been using them and still making amazing, surprising, deep campaigns. They started off playing in them for free, and enjoyed them enough to decide to invest and our gaming groups have certainly reaped the benefits.

The reason I mention this essentially comes down to brand loyalty and marketing in general. Whilst RW may be the deepest, richest, most versatile tool for campaign management on the market at the moment, if points of customer inaccessibility prevent enough people buying into its development, it can easily get left behind by a leaner, more accessible approach which draws better funding to the point that it will eventually completely overtake RW even in its own domain. If it seems like I am painting a gloomy picture there, let me make myself clear, I am not suggesting this is currently happening or on the brink or anything like that.

What I am saying is that for most people, there is inevitably going to be a compromise that goes on in their heads with any software they decide to use to run an RPG. That compromise can for all intents and purposes be measured, and gets weighed against other options. Already the lack of tabletop management functionality in RW is a compromise which most of my friends are unwilling to make. Whilst of course purely anecdotal, it gives me personally the idea that I might be in the minority in preferring an intricate, powerful, subtle yet expansive campaign manager over a flashy tabletop dice roller++ program.

I think for me, seeing my friends run such amazing campaigns with what I had built up in my head to be inferior gaming software really got to me, and still does. No fault of LWD or RW, but I also have an added problem of having built my campaign premise around a function that does not even exist yet in RW(topic reveal by individual player), unbeknownst to me at the time of getting into this. So, scrap the campaign I've been working on, and run something simpler, or try to find a work around that keeps the same premise are two options. The former is not appealing to me, and if I did I would likely resort to just using roll20 so that I at least had the tabletop element built in, and well, the latter is where I run into people telling me that my feature request has already been mentioned, thanks, we're getting to it... in a few years. Of course that is not to say that there may not be other workarounds, but compared to what people grow accustomed to in terms of updates from larger companies, the pace of LWD updates requires a bit of getting used to.

Nevertheless, I am still building my campaign setting in RW in the belief that I will get some amazing play out of this tool. I have no doubt that once I have a critical mass of data entered, even without the feature that I need in order to play a particular game, I will find it within myself to let that desire go, as many have suggested I do, and find one of the many many other ways to enjoy RW. Ultimately though, that would be another big compromise, and by that point may well be accompanied by regret.

I appreciate that RW is still in development, I think most people here do. But everyone has different patience thresholds and tolerances for compromise. On top of that, everyone will express those varying opinions in further varying ways. Although there are forums where there are trolls just 'whinging' about anything and everything devs do or dont do, and those places are usually quite toxic with a terrible signal/noise ratio, the contrary, where people have forced happiness and get flamed for any perceived criticism by zealously apologetic users is no less welcoming.

People have the same right to criticize as they do to compliment, particularly if they have paid for a product. Criticism need not be the negative thing that many make it out to be. I for one have seen Rob take constructive, and subjectively nonconstructive criticism both equally calmly and objectively. Its as if he were a grown adult trained in PR with a stake in what he does. Unfortunately not all forum members will react to each other with such pragmatic objectivity, in fact many invest themselves emotionally and subjectivize criticism against something they believe in. This is a big barrier to letting all be heard in a civilized and respectful way. If people really want to help the company or the product and invest time into defending them online, then at least familiarize yourself with how customer criticism can work in a market environment; criticism can be opportunity, just receiving it is market intelligence. There are companies that will pay their customers to 'give feedback' aka criticize them.

If you find yourself thinking that someone else is being negative or 'criticising' and you find yourself wanting to get angry at them for that, just chill out, take a step back, think to yourself that there could be any number of reasons why they sound that way, from language differences, to having been through different experiences. Put your 'constructive lens' glasses on, and just filter out what you don't like and take the good because censuring doesn't help anyone.

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.

[EightBitz]

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.

You used grammar, punctuation, sentences and paragraphs. It may have been long, but it wasn't a "wall of text." I reward you with 2,000 XP.

[Thomssen]

If you think this has taken a while, be glad you aren't in the Mekton Zero KS...three years and ZERO to show for it...

This is a program, and one that involves external entities. Anytime you are dealing with groups outside of your organization, it will take longer. Plus, it is refreshing to have a company take the line of "do it right the first time" instead of rushing something out and then spend (sometimes) years pushing out patches to fix it. I'm happy with what has been provided so far. Sure, it would be great to have the Content Market now, but the functionality provided to this point has impressed me.


Lol, what a thread. So substance, much angry.

I still remember the first time I saw a preview of RealmWorks. I was blown away. There is no doubt that it is amazing software. It's designed to facilitate *world-building* after all, and that is a fantastically large endeavor from the get-go. Knowing that RW was still in development, I purchased it anyway, despite being unemployed and quite poor at the time. My eager anticipation mounted to excitement as I opened the program and started exploring around it's inner workings for the first time. My excitement soon turned to anxiety over the incredibly complex array of tools as I wondered if I would ever get the chance to understand and use them all. I overcame that anxiety by deciding to use and practice on what I could understand by inputting as much of my campaign setting as I could. As much work as that can be, it is rewarding to see the matrices that you once contained in your head being backed up onto a third party that you can see and use.

Whilst it would be possible to end the story there and leave it at 'wonderful software, awesome experience' etc, most, dare I say, all people are inclined towards wanting more and better and many of those people will subconsciously be thinking of process improvements as they use any software, or even, perform any action. It is a part of seeing the potential behind something rather than just accepting things at face value.

Similarly, even without a mind incapable of settling on something as finished, when one finds specific elements that they would consider core to their gaming experience that are not supported by RW, then a compromise of needs/wants sets in. The amount that one must compromise whilst using RW is weighed up, either subconsciously or actively, against alternative options for campaign management.

During the last year that I have been patiently inputting my campaign setting into RW, I have been playing in games with friends who have purchased licenses or subscriptions to other similar-yet-different pieces of game enhancing software; in one game we use Fantasy Grounds; in another we use roll20.net. I was continually impressed by what my friends were able to do using their respective gaming tools, and throughout every session, I could not help but subconsciously track which parts of what my friends were bringing to the table I would or would not be able to do with RW.

Now, at this point I know a lot of you are thinking 'but those tools are different to RW, they are tabletop management, and RW is campaign management, they were never designed to be compared.' I am aware of this, but the truth of it is, that whilst RW is almost exclusively campaign management with a few tools which could be tweaked for tabletop management, those other 2, whilst being predominantly about tabletop management, still contain campaign management elements, limited but robust. And my friends have been using them and still making amazing, surprising, deep campaigns. They started off playing in them for free, and enjoyed them enough to decide to invest and our gaming groups have certainly reaped the benefits.

The reason I mention this essentially comes down to brand loyalty and marketing in general. Whilst RW may be the deepest, richest, most versatile tool for campaign management on the market at the moment, if points of customer inaccessibility prevent enough people buying into its development, it can easily get left behind by a leaner, more accessible approach which draws better funding to the point that it will eventually completely overtake RW even in its own domain. If it seems like I am painting a gloomy picture there, let me make myself clear, I am not suggesting this is currently happening or on the brink or anything like that.

What I am saying is that for most people, there is inevitably going to be a compromise that goes on in their heads with any software they decide to use to run an RPG. That compromise can for all intents and purposes be measured, and gets weighed against other options. Already the lack of tabletop management functionality in RW is a compromise which most of my friends are unwilling to make. Whilst of course purely anecdotal, it gives me personally the idea that I might be in the minority in preferring an intricate, powerful, subtle yet expansive campaign manager over a flashy tabletop dice roller++ program.

I think for me, seeing my friends run such amazing campaigns with what I had built up in my head to be inferior gaming software really got to me, and still does. No fault of LWD or RW, but I also have an added problem of having built my campaign premise around a function that does not even exist yet in RW(topic reveal by individual player), unbeknownst to me at the time of getting into this. So, scrap the campaign I've been working on, and run something simpler, or try to find a work around that keeps the same premise are two options. The former is not appealing to me, and if I did I would likely resort to just using roll20 so that I at least had the tabletop element built in, and well, the latter is where I run into people telling me that my feature request has already been mentioned, thanks, we're getting to it... in a few years. Of course that is not to say that there may not be other workarounds, but compared to what people grow accustomed to in terms of updates from larger companies, the pace of LWD updates requires a bit of getting used to.

Nevertheless, I am still building my campaign setting in RW in the belief that I will get some amazing play out of this tool. I have no doubt that once I have a critical mass of data entered, even without the feature that I need in order to play a particular game, I will find it within myself to let that desire go, as many have suggested I do, and find one of the many many other ways to enjoy RW. Ultimately though, that would be another big compromise, and by that point may well be accompanied by regret.

I appreciate that RW is still in development, I think most people here do. But everyone has different patience thresholds and tolerances for compromise. On top of that, everyone will express those varying opinions in further varying ways. Although there are forums where there are trolls just 'whinging' about anything and everything devs do or dont do, and those places are usually quite toxic with a terrible signal/noise ratio, the contrary, where people have forced happiness and get flamed for any perceived criticism by zealously apologetic users is no less welcoming.

People have the same right to criticize as they do to compliment, particularly if they have paid for a product. Criticism need not be the negative thing that many make it out to be. I for one have seen Rob take constructive, and subjectively nonconstructive criticism both equally calmly and objectively. Its as if he were a grown adult trained in PR with a stake in what he does. Unfortunately not all forum members will react to each other with such pragmatic objectivity, in fact many invest themselves emotionally and subjectivize criticism against something they believe in. This is a big barrier to letting all be heard in a civilized and respectful way. If people really want to help the company or the product and invest time into defending them online, then at least familiarize yourself with how customer criticism can work in a market environment; criticism can be opportunity, just receiving it is market intelligence. There are companies that will pay their customers to 'give feedback' aka criticize them.

If you find yourself thinking that someone else is being negative or 'criticising' and you find yourself wanting to get angry at them for that, just chill out, take a step back, think to yourself that there could be any number of reasons why they sound that way, from language differences, to having been through different experiences. Put your 'constructive lens' glasses on, and just filter out what you don't like and take the good because censuring doesn't help anyone.

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.

[Viking2054]

You actually read all that and didn't reward yourself with a Klondike bar? ;)

[Acenoid]

liked the post. I hope RW will add the open features soon and hopefully take a few featzuures for presenting the data to the players features up as well.

[kbs666]

When/if the next survey comes around I strongly suggest we all vote for integration with one or more of the VTT packages and individual reveal. Besides custom calendars those features seem to be the biggest weaknesses of RW.

[Acenoid]

Honestly I pay enough money for all the books and enough time to enter my own campaign data, I also play only offline, it would be enough for me if the standalone tool RW would work nicely with showing the maps and images to players. I posted this in the past (like a super quick reveal without confirmation , full screen ecetera) but Iam in the minority I think. I wouldnt like to administer , pay and work with an online vtt as well (that nobody of my players use)

For me it's most important that everything is easy to enter / edit / work with. I would also like to customize the icons a bit...

But I agree , that I will put my votes on the next survey on the next feature that is most important to me. Distributing my votes in the way I did, seemed to return results that I did not really like :D

Also I wanted to add: The features that help RW In the long run should be implemented, I would not like to see this project fail after all that time.

[AEIOU]

@Acenoid: Methinks you could find things to love from a VTT, even if you don't use it as intended. I find d20pro indispensable even when I don't play online. Others prefer to use HeroLab to track combat. Don't write off features you haven't had a chance to use. :)

[kbs666]

One of the biggest problems with using RW live at the table is when you're switching from nontactical activity and time which RW handles beautifully with its fog of world feature and tactical activity and time which RW simply punts on. The ability to integrate with a VTT would at least let you export a partially revealed map to the VTT and place the party on it and begin tactical movement from there using the VTT's lighting and reveal features and that is before you start tracking init and status effects.

[Silveras]

"Integration" is a topic that is "bigger than a breadbox". It sounds simple... "Just integrate!" But, as they say, "the devil is in the details".

In the short term, if you are using Rol20, the url for a game/campaign can be put into RealmWorks for the players to launch from there. The GM would still need to open a browser and go there manually, though.

EDIT:
To be clear, I think more integration options with VTT tools would be great. BUT.. the VTT makers need to be partners in that operation. No other tool can do much without the VTT maker enabling external manipulation in some way. Currently, no VTT that I have looked at has that. They have character importers, for instance, but no way for an external program to launch a specific encounter map or the like,

[kbs666]

Of course the VTT maker has to be on board but I'm sure one of them will be interested.

But just consider the number of times people come here thinking RW is a VTT. RW needs a better answer than no. Further as I say above it is frustrating to be using RW's really amazing controlled reveal of a map but when you need to start tactical movement you have to stop everything and move to physical minis and map or some other solution. I even messed around with embedding a screen in a tabletop but I still prefer having an upright screen for giving most info to my players and don't really have the budget for that many screens in my gaming room.

If RW doesn't do this one of the VTT's will get the idea that a persistent wiki or some other solution makes sense for at least some of their customers and RW will have a competitor that may never be as good but will be broader in scope and that breadth may well kill RW.

[EightBitz]

When/if the next survey comes around I strongly suggest we all vote for integration with one or more of the VTT packages and individual reveal. Besides custom calendars those features seem to be the biggest weaknesses of RW.

My #1 request is the ability to print.

[Silveras]

Of course the VTT maker has to be on board but I'm sure one of them will be interested.

But just consider the number of times people come here thinking RW is a VTT. RW needs a better answer than no. Further as I say above it is frustrating to be using RW's really amazing controlled reveal of a map but when you need to start tactical movement you have to stop everything and move to physical minis and map or some other solution. I even messed around with embedding a screen in a tabletop but I still prefer having an upright screen for giving most info to my players and don't really have the budget for that many screens in my gaming room.

If RW doesn't do this one of the VTT's will get the idea that a persistent wiki or some other solution makes sense for at least some of their customers and RW will have a competitor that may never be as good but will be broader in scope and that breadth may well kill RW.

The issue then is "How does LoneWolf better manage expectations so that people do not think of RealmWorks as something it is not?" How do they manage the message better so that people do not assume a tool that is not marketed as a VTT is a VTT anyway.

Some of the confusion was inevitable. RealmWorks, when hints and previews began, was a new thing.. a campaign management tool. People understand new things in relation to existing things.. so people who are used to seeing VTTs competing for their attention now see "a new VTT with more campaign management" instead of "a campaign management tool."

[adzling]

For me it seems as though Lonewolf doesn't grok that once you get the content into Realmworks you need a way to share it with the players.

Printing, a functional live web view, sharing of realms, PC specific reveals, player journals etc are all a CORE function of Realmworks that desperately needs to be implemented if it's promise is to be realized.

Without these tools Realmworks runs a real risk of becoming irrelevant as roll20 et al add these features to their VTTs.

[wurzel]

When/if the next survey comes around I strongly suggest we all vote for integration with one or more of the VTT packages and individual reveal. Besides custom calendars those features seem to be the biggest weaknesses of RW.

Definitely not. We don't use VTT and have no intention to start with one. There are so many features that are much more important (at least to me) that IMHO an integration with VTT should be ranked #237.

[daplunk]

As soon as the content market is in I feel they should be throwing all focus as the Web View (I suspect they will). We know they already have a working alpha as of 27 Feb 2015. You would hope some work has been done on it since there.

Web View will get the player's interested in RW also greatly expanding the customer base. Not to mention the dynamic it would add by getting my players into the world and content I've created.

I agree that VTT is completely not required for me. I run a 3 screen setup. I LOVE that I can display NPCs, Monsters, Handouts, etc on the second screen and would not want to give that up to run the map from within RW (keeping in mind RW only supports 2x screens currently). I have absolutely no concerns with going to another window to control the map via MapTools.

To be honest, RW's is too slow IMO for me to justify using it as a VTT. And by that i mean switching tabs takes longer than switching to MapTools. It's not an issue if you are just starting out, but the larger your database gets, the longer the load takes.

[Grey Mage]

I have to agree with daplunk about the speed of RW once you get a medium-large Realm. It can seriously cause a slowdown. I am running an i7 with 32g of RAM and some of my larger topics take a noticeable amount of time to load.

As for my 2 cents about things after the Content Market is live... I sort of lean towards calendars and the webview; say 60/40%.

Hope everyone had a good weekend.

[gamemasterbob]

I was one of the first in on the KickStarter. Loyal. Hopeful.

So...
I searched the forum for "content Realm Works" and got this thread. Now here I am after drilling through 21 pages (as of this writing) of posts with the question STILL remaining "Any ETA on content for RW?"

There are many loyal fans here and LWD, you seem a bit defensive. Don't be. Be glad! Get us some content to buy and you can have our money.

You underestimated the work involved in this. Big time! Understandable. So we wait.

Peace.

[daplunk]

According to the latest update we might know more by the end of this week. We don't know what more includes though and how detailed more will be.

[ChipmunkPDX]

I have been waiting patiently until the day I can buy RW and experience it for myself. My gaming group is an almost exclusive Apple/MAC group. Luckily we all have iPads and love HL. If they do offer a Web or MAC version, I know they will get our money because HL has impressed us. I know we are probably a smaller group, but living on the West Coast, I mostly see Apple products and think they would get an entire new group of costumers.

[EightBitz]

According to the latest update we might know more by the end of this week. We don't know what more includes though and how detailed more will be.

Julian Assange promises it'll be a huge October surprise!

[Aaron]

Julian Assange promises it'll be a huge October surprise!

Wikileaks reveals rob is the former child actor from 80's coming of age classic "Flight of the Navigator"!

[kbs666]

I have been waiting patiently until the day I can buy RW and experience it for myself. My gaming group is an almost exclusive Apple/MAC group. Luckily we all have iPads and love HL. If they do offer a Web or MAC version, I know they will get our money because HL has impressed us. I know we are probably a smaller group, but living on the West Coast, I mostly see Apple products and think they would get an entire new group of costumers.
You can run RW under an emulator but there has been no word on a native Mac version.

[JustinThomason]

You can run RW under an emulator but there has been no word on a native Mac version.

I had very good luck running RW in a Windows virtual machine through Parallels. I ended up buying an inexpensive Windows laptop as my GM machine, but until that time, Parallels worked great!