Cyberlimb armor?

[Stoffern]

I was just checking how Hero Lab is dealing with cyberlimb armor enhancements, since it's currently a hot topic for my Shadowrun group. After creating a quick test character I can see that cyberlimb armor doesn't seem to add to the total armor value of the character at all.
Anyone have any insight here? Anything obvious I'm missing?

- Stoffern

[Mathias]

Cyberlimb armor is only included if your opponent makes a called shot to hit the cyberlimb.

[Stoffern]

Okay, so is that a Lone Wolf judgement call or something that is clarified by Catalyst somewhere?

[Mathias]

There's nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does apply to non-called damage tests.

[Stoffern]

Okay then. Thanks for the quick replies!

[ahglock]

I'm kind of boggled by that rational. There is nothing to suggest in the rules that any armor is location specific. Helmets, shin guards, vests etc. all just add to you armor they don't provide a benefit only when someone tries to shoot you in the location. What about a cyber torso, do they need to make a called shot to the chest for the armor to kick in? The only real question about armor is does it stack or not. Armor vest, long coat no they don't stack. Form fitting and long coat does though, since form fitting like the secure line has a special rule that allows them to stack.

Generally if something is an exception to the rules they specify it as so, so if it required a called shot I think it would be specifically spelled out. In fact the line on page 344 of SR4A that says it is cumulative with all other worn armor would indicate otherwise in my mind. It does not say cumulative with worn armor that covers the same location in the case of a called shot, it is just cumulative. It does not specify if it is cumulative with itself, but I think that is a fairly safe assumption.

[Colen]

Helmets, for example, specifically say they don't count as separate pieces of armor:

Helmets and shields do not count as separate pieces of armor; instead, they modify the rating of worn armor by their rating (Armor and Encumbrance, p. 161).

I'm unaware of any similar statement made about Cyberlimb armor - is there such in the core rulebook or Augmentation?

[ahglock]

Helmets, for example, specifically say they don't count as separate pieces of armor:



I'm unaware of any similar statement made about Cyberlimb armor - is there such in the core rulebook or Augmentation?

page 344 of SR4A that says it is cumulative with all other worn armor.

I am not sure what else people would expect it to say in that regard.

Armor in SR just isn't hit location based. Something like the armor vest might have thicker armor than a lined coat but since it covers less area it provides less protection because it is all about a general level of defense and not my chest has 5 armor and my feet 0. Form fitting is a good example of this, which says it adds to the armor rating it does not use the words cumulative. But the shirt level provides 2 ballistic, the half suit 4, the full suit 6. If armor were location specific instead of just an overall rating it would provide 2 armor to a certain number of locations based on the level of form fitting.

Heck called shots to avoid armor are not even shots to the arm, head etc they are just a blanket I want to remove X amount of armor you decide you want to drop the targets armor by 4 for example and you have a 4 dice penalty. So exactly how does this called shot to the cyber limb pan out, I am shooting to avoid 4 armor, oh um I'll randomly decide you shot the cyber arm so you get your armor there? A called shot for extra damage is not location specific, so the cyber limb does not really come into play there. Does it only come into play when you make a called shot for a special effect like when someone says I am shooting the gun out of his hand, or I shoot his leg to slow him down?

[Canis]

If the target has a cyberarm with no armour and Dermal Sheath or Orthoskin, the least armoured location will be the cyberarm.....

I've looked through SR4A and Arsenal and I can't find anything solid on armour stacking, other than when applying the armour and encumberance rules. However pp343 of SR4A says:

Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.

This leads me to believe that cyberlimb armour may be added to worn armour similar to a helmet or shield. There are several references to armour 'stacking' but I cannot find the rules which say what stacking is - so I'm wondering if this stuff was cut and paste from SR3 rules. If that's the case, then perhaps the above quote was also cut and paste.

We need CGL to untangle this.... cos if armour stacks (as it did in SR3) then that's a major deal for runners, and also will need to be incorporated into HL and also put into the rulebooks :o)

[ahglock]

If the target has a cyberarm with no armour and Dermal Sheath or Orthoskin, the least armoured location will be the cyberarm.....

I've looked through SR4A and Arsenal and I can't find anything solid on armour stacking, other than when applying the armour and encumberance rules. However pp343 of SR4A says:



This leads me to believe that cyberlimb armour may be added to worn armour similar to a helmet or shield. There are several references to armour 'stacking' but I cannot find the rules which say what stacking is - so I'm wondering if this stuff was cut and paste from SR3 rules. If that's the case, then perhaps the above quote was also cut and paste.

We need CGL to untangle this.... cos if armour stacks (as it did in SR3) then that's a major deal for runners, and also will need to be incorporated into HL and also put into the rulebooks :o)

Most armor does not stack, the highest armor worn applies. Specific pieces of armor or cyber add to the total armor rating. Form fitting, orthoskin, PVC? armor shin guards etc., helmets, dermal, and I believe cyber limbs. Unless the armor specifies something like adds to the rating or it is cumulative it does not stack. If cyber limb armor does not stack that would be a big surprise to well pretty much everyone on the official forums and dumpshock.

[Canis]

Oh I agree, and am also of the opinion that cyberlimb armour is treated like helmets/shields etc.

[squeenabob]

Mathias,

You assert that: “There's nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does apply to non-called damage tests.” This is correct. However the alternate position, that there is nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does not apply to non-called damage tests. There is only one piece of armor that only functions on called damage tests, the Protective Covers (for eyeware). The Protective Covers state (on SR4A 340)

“Protective Covers: These can protect both cyber and normal eyes,
and confer both Ballistic and Impact armor bonuses of +2 to the eye
area. Available in transparent or one-way reflective versions.”

However, Cyberlimb armor states on SR4A 344, “Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.” This wording is consistent with Orthoskin (SR4A 346), Dermal Plating (SR4A 342), and Bone Lacing (341) which say

“Orthoskin adds its rating to the character’s Ballistic and Impact ratings (cumulative with worn armor).”

“Dermal plating confers a bonus to both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.”

“Bone Lacing: The cellular structure of the user’s bones is aug-
mented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and metals to im-
prove the bones’ integrity and tensile strength, but the augmentation
also adds extra weight. Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to
the Body attribute for damage resistance tests. Aluminum bone lacing
confers a +2 Body bonus for damage resistance tests and a +1 Impact
armor bonus (cumulative with worn armor). Titanium bone lacing
confers bonuses of +3 to Body for damage resistance tests and +1 to
both Ballistic and Impact armor. Characters with bone lacing also in-
flict Physical damage with their unarmed blows. Bone Lacing is incom-
patible with Bone Density Augmentation bioware.”

To summarize, my argument is that you established an arbitrary rule (that the Core Rulebook didn’t say X so clearly it works like Y”) when instead the Core Rulebook treated cyberlimb armor with the same language as Orthoskin, Dermal Plating, and Bone Lacing. The Core Rulebook could have mentioned that cyberlimb armor only works on a specific area like Protective Covers, but it does not. Instead, Cyberlimb armor is treated the same as Orthoskin, Dermal Plating, and Bone Lacing which Hero Labs treats differently.

[_Pax_]

There's nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does apply to non-called damage tests.

Except, of course, for the little problem that called shots to specific parts of a target, to go against specific levels of armor, do not exist in the rules at all.

Seriously:

(SR4A p161, emphasis mine)
CALLED SHOTS
Characters may “call shots” in an attempt to increase the damage their
weapons will do. Calling a shot means that the character is aiming at
a vulnerable portion of a target, such as a person’s head, the tires or
windows of a vehicle, and so on. Thee gamemaster decides if such a
vulnerable spot is accessible.

A character can only make a called shot with weapons that are
in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes, as well as melee
weapons. A character can aim (see Take Aim, p.148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.
When a shot is called, and pending the gamemaster’s agreement,
the player character has the choice to:

• Target an area not protected by armor. Thee attacking character receives
a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better
armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor
is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

[...]

A called shot to bypass armor bypasses ALL armor. All of it. No exceptions. So, your "for called shots only" armor idea, would result in ... no armor. They don't even get the armor from things like Ceramic Bone Lacing, or Orthoskin. They get 0/0 armor, period.

[Mathias]

I apologize, but can we revisit this in a few weeks, please? I'm currently ripping my hair out over how I can allow you to spend karma to add a program option to a complex form (there are some aggravating limitations in how the advancements actually function within Hero Lab), and even after I finish that, I only have a few more weeks to finish all of Runner's Companion and Unwired. I'm afraid I don't currently have the time to study this issue any further.

[Canis]

A called shot to bypass armor bypasses ALL armor. All of it. No exceptions. So, your "for called shots only" armor idea, would result in ... no armor. They don't even get the armor from things like Ceramic Bone Lacing, or Orthoskin. They get 0/0 armor, period.

No they get the armour in the location shot at, minus the modifier you apply - a temporary AP increase - due to called shot. Sure you can go for -10 if you'd like, but that shot is gonna be pretty tough (even my prime runner gunslinger adept would find that a challenge). You are targeting an area of armour of the level of your choosing based on the dice pool modifier you choose to inflict upon yourself for the called shot. If that means you hit the arm, then you hit the arm. Called shots aren't all or nothing!!

It would appear that there is mounting evidence for cyberlimb armour to be treated as cumulative much like form fitting armour, helmets and other implant armour. This makes sense, though it does make even higher armour values possibe but capacity issues will balance that out (I hope).

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

[ahglock]

No they get the armour in the location shot at, minus the modifier you apply - a temporary AP increase - due to called shot. Sure you can go for -10 if you'd like, but that shot is gonna be pretty tough (even my prime runner gunslinger adept would find that a challenge). You are targeting an area of armour of the level of your choosing based on the dice pool modifier you choose to inflict upon yourself for the called shot. If that means you hit the arm, then you hit the arm. Called shots aren't all or nothing!!

It would appear that there is mounting evidence for cyberlimb armour to be treated as cumulative much like form fitting armour, helmets and other implant armour. This makes sense, though it does make even higher armour values possibe but capacity issues will balance that out (I hope).

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

True but it is a abstract rule based on armor value and not on location. Shooting the guy in the leg when wearing an armored jacket is harder than shooting someone in the eye when wearing a full suit form fitting.

[Mathias]

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

After three years of programming character generators based on five different publishers, I've stopped believing that NPCs built by the publisher are worth anything as evidence in a rules argument - they all very often fail to follow their own rules when writing NPCs (and pregens).

[Canis]

After three years of programming character generators based on five different publishers, I've stopped believing that NPCs built by the publisher are worth anything as evidence in a rules argument - they all very often fail to follow their own rules when writing NPCs (and pregens).

While I agree with you in the main, as one of CGL's proof readers I know there aforementioned NPC's are accurate.

[_Pax_]

Honestly, the simplest interim solution is: make it an Option, in the list of optional rules. Let individual players / GMs make their own rulings at home.

[Mathias]

Honestly, the simplest interim solution is: make it an Option, in the list of optional rules. Let individual players / GMs make their own rulings at home.

As an interim solution, on the In-Play Adjustments table on the Adjust tab, you can use the Armor - Ballistic and Armor - Impact adjustments to modify the values on one of your other armor pieces until the totals are correct.

[Ryu]

Synner on Cyberlimbs (Source) (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31291&st=50&p=934700&#entry934700)

Stacking Armor - We could have been clearer but it was assumed by the designers that all types of cyber and bio armor enhancement were understood to stack with worn armor. Not making sure this was clearly conveyed may have been a mistake but the rule itself is not unbalanced given the limitations of Capacity and overall costs of both enhancements and the cyberlimbs themselves (in Essence and nuyen). Yes, you can build a (relatively) bulletproof character, unfortunately there will be little room for any other enhancement in his cyberlimbs and it will show in his Atttributes. As has been stated in this thread, being (relatively) bulletproof isn't the gamebreaker people assume at face value (particularly not compared to some of the feats magicians are capable of and not at the cost it comes at).

[Ryu]

Take another look at the cyberlimb examples on pg 343 of the Core Rulebook - "the rest of the body" is always one entry in the average. You don't add the character's normal stats for each un-cybered limb.

Their Critical George example has Body 3 + Body 6 cybertorso + Body 3 cyberarm + Body 5 cyberleg

The calculations in their example are (3 + 6 + 3 + 5) / 4 = 4.25, rather than (3 + 3 + 3 + 6 + 3 + 5) / 6 = 3.8

For future reference:

The math should be (3+3+6+3+5)/5=20/5=4 (RAW). See link above.

[Ryu]

HeroLab not conforming with cyberlimb armor rules just came up on DS, so I thought I´d go and drag this back up.